Christ having glory

In the previous article Jesus begotten Son of God #20 Before and After we mentioned  John 17:5 where Jesus spoke of the glory which he “had” before the foundation of the world.

In the replies to that article we also pointed out to Gods Plan in which the Almighty Creator foresaw many things and gave the world the opportunity to develop partly according human wishes but having to become to an end according the wish of the Creator God the Father.

God, who has been for ever started off with His Word, which embedded His Plan. God’s thinking was brought to the people by the voice of the Holy Spirit (the Power of God) and by His messengers like the angels, prophets and priests.

It was God Himself who carried the Word, the ideas or thoughts as well as the expression of His thinking and wishing, in Himself because every thought every word, every expression, was part of Himself.

Protoplanetary-disk
All fits marvelously well in the Cretion of God Almighty, in which the human is just a tiny spot of the universe, where we are able to find the glory of Jesus Christ the Saviour of us all.
In His thoughts the fulfilment of the Creation was foreseen and with it God loved what He wanted to make.

Being the Creator of everything and having all power He knows everything, but He leaves opportunities to change the ways of what could happen. Though He loves all those who want to follow Him and live according to His Law.

God conceived a plan and later brought it to fruition. In Gods Plan after the First Sin He took care there would come a solution to get rid of the consequences from the Fall, and out of the seed of the woman, the virgin Mary, would come the person, the Emmanuel Jesus Jeshua, who could save the the world, by bruising the tale of evil. this man would become from the tribe of the People of God, Israel in the lineage of Abraham and David. In case we want to belong to that Saviour, the Messiah, we can come seed of Abraham ourselves and be part of those people who shall be able to enter the Kingdom of God, because our names shall be in the Book of Life. (Revelation 17:8)

Therefore we should recognise that person who was foreseen in Gods Plan and was, as those who were written from the beginning, in the Book of Life, already sanctified by God before the first Adam, Cain, Seth, Methusalah, Noach, Sem, Terah, Abraham, Isaac, Samuel, David, Jacob and others where born. Out of Abraham would come a whole generation of which would later come Jesus, out of whom the New Generation would be born.

“I will put animosity between you and the woman, and between your descendant and her descendant; he will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”” (Genesis 3:15 CJB)
““the parable is this: the seed is god’s message.” (Luke 8:11 CJB)
“in other words, it is not the physical children who are children of god, but the children the promise refers to who are considered seed.” (Romans 9:8 CJB)
“also, as Yesha`yahu said earlier, “if \@ADONAI-Tzva’ot\@ had not left us a seed, we would have become like S’dom, we would have resembled ‘Amora.” {#Isa 1:9}” (Romans 9:29 CJB)
“now the promises were made to Avraham and to his seed. it doesn’t say, “and to seeds,” as if to many; on the contrary, it speaks of one – “and to your seed” {#Ge 12:7 13:15 17:7 24:7} – and this “one” is the Messiah.” (Galatians 3:16 CJB)

“also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29 CJB)
“the glory which you have given to me, I have given to them; so that they may be one, just as we are one—” (John 17:22 CJB)

““father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am; so that they may see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” (John 17:24 CJB)

Jesus foreseen in the Plan of God both him and the disciples “had” a glory in promise and prospect. John writing his gospel in Jewish fashion speaks of a pre-existing Purpose, not a pre-existing second Person.

Jesus known before by the Creator as we are already known by Him, did as such exist in the Plan and in the Spirit of God before Abraham or David were born. God also knew of what Jesus would be capable of doing, and trusted that this human could bring the Promises made to the many people in previous ages to a good end.

As we are known by God since the foundation of the earth and our names are already written in the Book of the Last Judgement, we are mentioned in it with the deeds we shall commit as Jesus is also written in it with the works he did. But Jesus his works were special and received special attention from the Creator who also helped Jesus Christ to do all those miracles as sign that God was with him.

As such, knowing the will of Jesus to give his body for all sinners, God gave him glory from the beginning of times. Therefore that glory was already with God before Abraham was born, and Jesus could say “he was before Abraham” and “he had glory”. Though when he says he “had” that does not mean at the time of his saying his glory by God would have been finished. Other-while he would have said “the glory I did have”.

Probably the glory of God for Jesus can be found as well in that Book of life, which was only ‘written’, as it were, subsequent to the fall. From the fall, individuals have either been in it, or not. Prior to the fall, there was no need for such a record – there were only 2 individuals, and neither had sinned, but the many children of Adam and Eve which were going to fill the Paradise of God would already be in Gods head.

The Lamb of God foreseen from the beginning and spoken of in the Garden of Eden ” was not actually slain much before 33 CE. But his glory was praised by all the holy prophets who, through the Holy Spirit, preached of the coming of Messiah “in the flesh”. Jesus his coming “in the flesh” was the actual beginning of the work for which “the Lamb” indeed was slain.

As such God could know about the man from Nazareth who was going to go righteously in the footsteps of the ‘given directions by God’ to the people of Israel. As such He could already love Jesus before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)

Jesus in John 17:5 speaks of the glory he ( “I” ) had with the Father before the world began.
The answer is in (#Joh17:4): “I have brought you GLORY on earth BY COMPLETING the work you gave me to do.”

“4 I have esteemed You on the earth, having accomplished the work You have given Me that I should do. 5 And now, esteem Me with Yourself, Father, with the esteem which I had with You before the world was. 6 I have revealed Your Name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have guarded Your Word. {(#Ps 138:2)}. 7 Now they have come to know that all You gave to Me, is from You. 8 Because the Words which You gave to Me, I have given to them. And they have received them, and have truly known that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I have been esteemed in them.” (John 17:4-10 The Scriptures 1998+)

Only by beginning his active live Jesus could bring Gods vision to the people. For God the time has come only at that moment that He can show to His people who the Blessed Anointed is who can save the world. It is also by the signs God gives to the world that we can get to know that that man Jesus, Jeshua, child of Joseph and Maria (Mary/Miriam) from Nazareth is the promised Messiah, where the world had to wait for such a long time. Know the great day dawned that can show the world who has His glory.

The first time Jesus receives glory is at his baptism where God declares this ‘son of man‘ to be His only and unique beloved son.  As touching the election, Jesus Christ and his followers shall be the one loved for the Fathers’ sakes and be able to get eternal life.

““for god so loved the world that he gave his only and unique son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed.” (John 3:16 CJB)
“when you are persecuted in one town, run away to another. yes indeed; I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Isra’el before the son of man comes.” (Matthew 10:23 CJB)
“and a voice from heaven said, “this is my son, whom I love; I am well pleased with him.”” (Matthew 3:17 CJB)

The moment Jesus begins his public life God can give him the glory which he would have had already in the thoughts of God, who knew this person could be the best one to fulfil the task foreseen at the fall, to make an end to death.

For the world it was important that God showed the world who the Saviour was, because other while the people would find it to difficult to recognise the promised Saviour or Messiah. In  order for the people to know that Jesus is the man who is given to the people to do the task predicted in the earlier writings God gives His beloved son attributes which shall enable him to get people around him, to listen and to see the works God does by the hands of his son.  Jesus also asks God now (at the time when he was living and speaking) to glorify him because he made his Father’s name known unto the men. The people Jesus is able to speak to in parables and with the clear words already brought by the prophets from earlier times, were not only Jews but could enhance people out of the world which were already belonging to God from the beginning of the world and written in the Book of Life as those who made the right choice in their life. “They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.” Says Christ about them. (John 17:6)

The saying that he had the glory before does not mean that he would not have it any more. When we  say “yesterday I had a bottle of milk in the fridge”, it can be that the bottle is still standing in that fridge today and shall still be standing there tomorrow.  In case the bottle would be empty and not be standing in the fridge any more we would  say “I have had a bottle of milk standing in the fridge” .

Jesus had the glory and still has it, but now the people have to get to know it. And glory has to be brought unto him now (at that time) on earth. Without God showing the people that Jesus has the glory by his Father, people would not know it and would have it difficult to accept him, Jesus, as the promised one spoken of by many prophets before Roman times.

Jesus did not say “I did have” or “I did had”, which at that time would have meant he had lost that glory at a certain time, but now it can (and probably did) that he did not loose the glory of God = so glory of God has ever been over Jesus. Today the Glory of God is still with him. In the same context (vv. 22 and 24) that same glory has already “been given” (past tense) to disciples not yet born at the time when Jesus spoke.

““I glorified you on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. now, father, glorify me alongside yourself. give me the same glory I had with you before the world existed. “I made your name known to the people you gave me out of the world. they were yours, you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. now they know that everything you have given me is from you, because the words you gave me I have given to them, and they have received them. they have really come to know that I came from you, and they have come to trust that you sent me. “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given to me, because they are yours. indeed, all I have is yours, and all you have is mine, and in them I have been glorified.” (John 17:4-10 CJB)
“the glory which you have given to me, I have given to them; so that they may be one, just as we are one—” (John 17:22 CJB)
““father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am; so that they may see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” (John 17:24 CJB)

As the Great Architect, God can envisage the glory of the saints, the kingdom, and Christ before their actual existence. (See Acts 15:18; Matt. 25:34; John 17:5, 24; Eph. 1:4; Heb. 4:3).

“says \@ADONAI\@, who is doing these things.’ {#am 9:11-12} all this has been known for ages.” (Acts 15:18 CJB)
““then the king will say to those on his right, ‘come, you whom my father has blessed, take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.” (Matthew 25:34 CJB)
“now, father, glorify me alongside yourself. give me the same glory I had with you before the world existed.” (John 17:5 CJB)
“in the Messiah he chose us in love before the creation of the universe to be holy and without defect in his presence.” (Ephesians 1:4 CJB)
“for it is we who have trusted who enter the rest. it is just as he said, “and in my anger, I swore that they would not enter my rest.” {#Ps 95:11} he swore this even though his works have been in existence since the founding of the universe.” (Hebrews 4:3 CJB)

“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” (John 17:5 NIV)
“”Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” (John 17:24 NIV)
“that have been known for ages. {17,18 Some manuscripts things’—18 known to the Lord for ages is his work}” (Acts 15:18 NIV)
“”Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.” (Matthew 25:34 NIV)
“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love” (Ephesians 1:4 NIV)
“Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’” {Psalm 95:11; also in verse 5} And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world.” (Hebrews 4:3 NIV)

As Jesus is glorified by his Father God the Almighty, the Holy Spirit or Pneuma is on him. By becoming like Christ we ourselves also can receive the Holy Spirit or Pneuma of God and receive Gods glory.

Out of himself Jesus was unable to do anything. Therefore he needed the glory of God to be with him. He needed God’s Spirit to be with him so that he could make the right  decisions. Jesus was aware he needed this glory of his Father and had no desire to do what was pleasing to himself? For him it was clear that he wanted only to do what was pleasing to Him who had sent him. (John 5:30). He knew he was the special product from his Father in heaven. The people had to get to know now this  prophet given from among Gods people.

By the glorification of Jesus by God the voice of the Most High could come to the ears of those who wanted to listen and hear. This prophet from among ourselves (the common people), like you, was put God words in his mouth, and this prophet and Master Teacher said to them who listened or still want to listen whatever God gave him orders to say. And whoever does not give ear to Gods words, which came to our fathers through the prophets, in different parts and in different ways, which Jesus said in God’s name, will be responsible to to the Creator of all things, Jehovah God. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Hebrews 1:1)

This man of God Jeshua or Jesus of Nazareth, who, being the outshining of his glory, the true image of his substance, supporting all things by the word of his power, having given himself as an offering making clean from sins, took his seat at the right hand of God in heaven;”  He always had the glory of God and was given the Holy Spirit, so that he went about doing good and making well all who were troubled by evil spirits, for God was with him. (Hebrews 1:3 ; Acts 10:38)

The man who had the glory by God from the beginning, when he was under the people on this earth, had to be recognised as the ‘man of God’ and as the one who could bring all those things which are in the writings of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms about him, to be put into effect. (Luke 24:44)

After Jesus , servant by the purpose of God, died he was glorified even more by being lifted up to the right hand of God, and having the Father’s word that the Holy Spirit would come, he had sent this thing, which the chosen ones could see and have knowledge of. (Acts 2:33 ) By that glorification of Jesus we too can now become  servants by the purpose of God  to give effect to the word of God.

“I can’t do a thing on my own. as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is right; because I don’t seek my own desire, but the desire of the one who sent me.” (John 5:30 CJB)
“for I have come down from heaven to do not my own will but the will of the one who sent me.” (John 6:38 CJB)
““\@ADONAI\@ will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. you are to pay attention to him, just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested \@ADONAI\@ your god, ‘don’t let me hear the voice of \@ADONAI\@ my god any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!’ on that occasion \@ADONAI\@ said to me, ‘they are right in what they are saying. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him. whoever doesn’t listen to my words, which he will speak in my name, will have to account for himself to me.” (Deuteronomy 18:15-19 CJB)
“in days gone by, god spoke in many and varied ways to the fathers through the prophets.” (Hebrews 1:1 CJB)
“this son is the radiance of the \@sh’khinah\@, the very expression of god’s essence, upholding all that exists by his powerful word; and after he had, through himself, made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of \@haG’dulah baM’romim\@. {#Ps 110:1}” (Hebrews 1:3 CJB)
“how god anointed Yeshua from Natzeret with the \@Ruach\@ \@haKodesh\@ and with power; how Yeshua went about doing good and healing all the people oppressed by the adversary, because god was with him.” (Acts 10:38 CJB)

“Yeshua said to them, “this is what I meant when I was still with you and told you that everything written about me in the \@torah\@ of Moshe, the prophets and the psalms had to be fulfilled.”” (Luke 24:44 CJB)

““moreover, he has been exalted to the right hand of god; has received from the father what he promised, namely, the \@Ruach haKodesh\@; and has poured out this gift, which you are both seeing and hearing.” (Acts 2:33 CJB)
“I became a servant of the good news because god gave me this work to do for your benefit. the work is to make fully known the message from god,” (Colossians 1:25 CJB)

God has revealed his glory in the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, the face of Christ. This revelation of glory contains within it the seeds of our mission. We, with unveiled faces, should reflect the glory of the Most High, Creator of all things. In order for our faces, that is our persons, to reflect to the world His glory, our faces must be turned to Christ. Not a false Christ, not an idol of our own creation or someone else’s creation, which has no glory.

We are created in the image of God: male and female. Christ, himself being an image of God, honours this creation by celebrating a marriage, revealing the emptiness of sinful humanity but also the re-creative power and glory of God.

God by giving his glory to Jesus and showing His glory to Jesus when Jesus was on earth, makes it clear for us that he is the one who totally deserves full glory of God. By the Word became flesh, God’s Plan having become human reality, we have seen his glory. Christ’s time had and has come. The glory of Christ Jesus shall also still be coming.  He will come in glory.  He saves the best for last. Let us therefore look out for this majestic glory, hopefully to come soon.

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JOHN 17:5       “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”

PROBLEM:      If Christ had glory with God before the world was, then obviously it is argued he must have existed before his birth on earth.

SOLUTION*:

1.      Stress is often placed on Jesus’ statement that he had glory with the Father. The J.W.’s in their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translate this verse as follows: “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” But the Greek preposition “parà” translated “with” in the A.V. and “alongside” in the N.W.T. also occurs in John 1:6: “There was a man sent from {Greek: parà} God, whose name was John.” If the preposition in John 17:5 requires the literal pre-existence of Christ, then likewise it requires the literal pre-existence of John the Baptist. It is interesting that the N.W.T. inconsistently translates John 1:6 as follows: “There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God: his name was John.” There is no hint of pre-existence here.

2.      How could Jesus have glory with his Father “before the world was” if he did not literally pre-exist? An illustration is helpful: An architect sees and knows the beautiful details of his proposed construction before the site is prepared, or the foundation-stone laid. But God is the great Architect and in His divine plan, Christ was “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8)—the chief cornerstone “foreordained before the foundation of the world”. (1 Peter 1:20). The building will duly be fitly framed together (Eph. 2:21) to constitute its part in the “kingdom prepared … from the foundation of the world.” (Matt. 25:34). Christ was “foreordained”, but not formed until born of the virgin Mary in the days of Herod the king. Likewise, the glory he had with his Father was in the divine plan of the great Architect. It was the subject of prophetic testimony “when it {the Spirit of Christ} testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow.” (1 Peter 1:11 cf. John 12:41).

3.      Scripture speaks as if others pre-existed, as well as Christ. Consider the following:
a.      Of believers, Paul wrote:
i.      “Whom he did foreknow.” (Rom. 8:29).
ii.      “He had afore prepared {note the past tense} unto glory.” (Rom. 9:23 cf. 2 Tim. 1:9).
iii.      “He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.” (Eph. 1:4).
b.      Of Jeremiah, the LORD said: “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer. 1:5).

But who would contend for the pre-existence of Jeremiah and other believers because the language employed states that God knew them before they were born? Similarly, the language of John 17:5 must be understood in terms of this background. Unless the principle is recognized that God “calleth those things which be not as though they were” (Rom. 4:17), confusion will result in Biblical interpretation, as it does with the wrested pre-existence interpretation given to this passage in John’s gospel.

4.      The context is sufficiently clear that Christ is not “Very God”. His power and authority are derived, not innate: “As thou hast given him {Christ} power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.” (John 17:2).

* Wrested Scriptures [computer files. 1997 (electronic ed.). Northridge, CA: The Christadelphian.

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Read also:

The radiance of God’s glory and the counsellor

He has given us the Pneuma, the force, from Him

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God the Father and the Virgin Mary (fragments ...
God the Father and the Virgin Mary - Image via Wikipedia
  • Jesus begotten Son of God #20 Before and After (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
  • On the Nature of Christ (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
  • The Beginning of the life of Jesus Christ (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
  • In The Mystery of Christ in Us (idealman.wordpress.com) the article writer says that “Christ in us” as a very significant part of the gospel, should be the milk as well as the solid food. The glory of Christ should come over us so that the glory of God could also be over us. One point of the Glory of God over Jesus is that it is part of the image of the invisible God. We are not able to see God, other while we would die, but in His son we are allowed to see many attributes of His Father, our God in heaven. Jesus Christ is  is so important to come to the faith.
    +
    God’s desire is explicitly expressed here: God wanted to make known among the Gentiles the glorious wealth of this mystery. God had a plan for how He was going to do that.
    +
    It says we behold Jesus with unveiled faces and are transformed into the same image, where that image becomes our identity and all the more magnifies the glory of Christ.
  • Manly Passages for the Day: The Image of God (idealman.wordpress.com)
    the greatest understanding comes through the Bible because is more directly from God.  Therefore, in essence, we go to God through the Bible.Having the blueprint in the Bible is incredible.  However, we need to see that Jesus is the very image of that blueprint.  Without this understanding we’re simply trying to peice words together.
  • Reflective Glory (idealman.wordpress.com)
    One of the most amazing thoughts is how God is after glory in us! His purpose for us is beholding His glorious image.
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    Through the covenant of Christ we are being brought from one stage of glory to another (2Cor. 3:18). Like it says, it is a transformation process that is ever increasing. We have the ideal man, Jesus ever before us. In Him we’re not simply followers; we’re reflectors—image bearers.
  • Let His Glory Reign (todaysanewday.wordpress.com)
    Though we may try to stop it at all costs, the Holy Spirit will continue to provide opportunities for us to shine like stars and serve Him on His terms and not on our God-in-the-box ways.
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    To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. – Colossians 1:27
  • Romans 5:1-5 (NIV) (lwharper.wordpress.com)
  • The glory of Christ may others see who Christ Jesus is, and let them do understand what it means to be in the image of God, what we all are or should be.  therefore it may be nice to see, even when others do not like it, that certain pastors, after a few years may come to the truth and reflect on it like  TD Jakes Breaks Down the Trinity, Addresses Being Called a ‘Heretic’ By Nicola Menzie (trinityspeaks.wordpress.com). Bishop T.D. Jakes, pastor of The Potter’s House megachurch in Dallas, Texas, was put on the spot during a theological roundtable and let others know that Paul is not a modalist, but he does not think it is robbery to the divinity of God to say God was ‘manifest’ in the flesh.
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    “For you, the issue between Trinitarianism and modalism at its essence is one God manifesting Himself successively in three ways, or one God, three persons, simultaneously existing eternally. Your best understanding now … would you say it’s ‘one God manifesting Himself in three ways’ or ‘one God in three persons?’” Driscoll asked.“I believe that neither one of them totally get it for me,” Jakes revealed, yet expressing his agreement with the description of “one God, three persons.”“Here is why I am there. I am not crazy about the word ‘persons’ … most people who know me know that … my doctrinal statement is really no different from yours except for the word ‘manifest’ instead of ‘person,’ which you describe as modalist and I describe as Pauline,” Jakes insisted, before quoting 1 Timothy 3:16.

o them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. – Colossians 1:27

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  2. […] Christ having glory (christadelphians.wordpress.com) God Himself who carried the Word, the ideas or thoughts as well as the expression of His thinking and wishing, in Himself because every thought every word, every expression, was part of Himself. Are we willing to take His words to the people around John the Baptist and his nephew Jesus at the Jordan to our heart? […]

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