Jesus begotten Son of God #20 Before and After

Preceding article: Jesus begotten Son of God #19 Compromising fact

The Anointed begotten Son of God

44. Before

““And now, esteem Me with Yourself, Father, with the esteem which I had with You before the world was.” (John 17:5 The Scriptures 1998+)

Prologus Ioanni Vulgata Clementina
Prologue of the gospel of St. John from the Clementine Vulgate, edited by P. Michael Hetzenauer, O.M.Cap. Biblia Sacra, vol. V, Regensburg: Verlag Friedrich Pustet, 1922, p. 197.
In John 17:5 Jesus spoke of the glory which he “had” before the foundation of the world. But in the same context (vv. 22 and 24) that same glory has already “been given” (past tense) to disciples not yet born at the time when Jesus spoke.

“And the esteem which You gave Me I have given them, so that they might be one as We are one, “ (John 17:22 The Scriptures 1998+)

““Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, might be with Me where I am, so that they see My esteem which You have given Me, because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.” (John 17:24 The Scriptures 1998+)

It is clear then that the glory which both Jesus and the disciples “had” is a glory in promise and prospect. Jesus thus prays to have conferred on him at his ascension the glory which God had undertaken to give him from the foundation of the world. John speaks in Jewish fashion of a pre-existing Purpose, not a pre-existing second Person. Our point was well expressed by a distinguished Lutheran New Testament professor, H.H. Wendt (The System of Christian Teaching, 1907):

“It is clear that John 8:58 [‘Before Abraham was I am’] and 17:5 do not speak of a real pre-existence of Christ. We must not treat these verses in isolation, but understand them in their context.

“The saying in John 8:58, ‘Before Abraham came to be, I am’ was prompted by the fact that Jesus’ opponents had countered his remark in v. 51 by saying that Jesus was not greater than Abraham or the prophets (v. 52). As the Messiah commissioned by God Jesus is conscious of being in fact superior to Abraham and the prophets. For this reason he replies (according to the intervening words, v. 54ff) that Abraham had ‘seen his day,’ i.e., the entrance of Jesus on his historical ministry, and ‘had rejoiced to see’ that day. And Jesus strengthens his argument by adding the statement, which sounded strange to the Jews, that he had even been ‘before Abraham’ (v. 58). This last saying must be understood in connection with v. 56. Jesus speaks in vv. 55, 56 and 58 as if his present ministry on earth stretches back to the time of Abraham and even before. His sayings were perceived by the Jews in this sense and rejected as nonsense. But Jesus obviously did not (in v. 56) mean that Abraham had actually experienced Jesus’ appearance on earth and seen it literally. Jesus was referring to Abraham’s spiritual vision of his appearance on earth, by which Abraham, at the birth of Isaac, had foreseen at the same time the promised Messiah, and had rejoiced at the future prospect of the greater one (the Messiah) who would be Israel’s descendant. Jesus’ reference to his existence before Abraham’s birth must be understood in the same sense. There is no sudden heavenly pre-existence of the Messiah here: the reference is again obviously to his earthly existence. And this earthly existence is precisely the existence of the Messiah. As such, it was not only present in Abraham’s mind, but even before his time, as the subject of God’s foreordination and foresight. The sort of pre-existence Jesus has in mind is ‘ideal’ [in the world of ideas and plans]. In accordance with this consciousness of being the Messiah preordained from the beginning, Jesus can indeed make the claim to be greater than Abraham and the prophets.

“In John 17:5 Jesus asks the Father to give him now the heavenly glory which he had with the Father before the world was. The conclusion that because Jesus possessed a pre-existent glory in heaven he must also have pre-existed personally in heaven is taken too hastily. This is proven by Matthew 6:20 (‘Lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven’), 25:34 (‘Come, you blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’), Col. 1:5 (‘the hope which is laid up for you in heaven about which you heard in the word of Truth, the Gospel’), and 1 Peter 1:4 (‘an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, which does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you’). Thus a reward can also be thought of as preexistent in heaven. Such a reward is destined for human beings and already held in store, to be awarded to them at the end of their life. So it is with heavenly glory which Jesus requests. He is not asking for a return to an earlier heavenly condition. Rather he asks God to give him now, at the end of his work as Messiah on earth (v. 4), the heavenly reward which God had appointed from eternity for him, as Messiah. As the Messiah and Son he knows he has been loved and foreordained by the Father from eternity (v. 24). Both John 8:58 and 17:5 are concerned with God’s predetermination of the Messiah” (cp. Teaching of Jesus, pp. 453-460).

Note: Things which are held in store as divine plans for the future are said to be “with God.” Thus in Job 10:13 Job says to God, “These things you have concealed in your heart: I know that this is with You” (see KJV). “He performs what is appointed for me, and many such decrees are with Him” (Job 23:14). Thus the glory which Jesus had “with God” was the glory which God had planned for him as the decreed reward for his Messianic work now completed. The promise of glory “pre-existed,” not Jesus himself. Note that this same glory which Jesus asked for has already been given to you (see John 17:22, 24). It was given to you and Jesus whom God loved before the foundation of the world (v. 24; cp. Eph. 1:4). You may therefore say that you now “have” that glory although it is glory in promise and prospect, to be gained at the Second Coming. Jesus had that same glory in prospect before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). [39. Anthony Buzzard, editor of Focus on the Kingdom in” Jesus’ Long-Form Birth Certificate Released by Luke and Matthew (and John), 2000 years ago, and Recorded in Scripture” (June 2011)]

45. After

Paul can say that we now “have” a new body with God in heaven (2 Cor. 5:1) — i.e., we have the promise of it, not in actuality. That body will be ours at our resurrection at the return of Christ. We now “have” it in anticipation and promise only. (“We have a building of God…” 2 Cor. 5:1). We do not in fact have it yet. This is the very Jewish language of promises decreed by God. They are absolutely certain to be fulfilled.

“For we know that if the tent of our earthly house, is destroyed, we have a building from Elohim, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 5:1 The Scriptures 1998+)

We do not have our foundation in the dust, but we do come out from the dust and soil and shall return to the soil. As the first man was made from the dust of the earth. He came from the earth. The second man came from heaven because he was placed in the mother’s womb by the divine power of the One and Only God. In the man who wanted to die for all other men we have the treasure of the Good News.

“But Elohim gives it a body as He wishes, and to each seed a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds. And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the esteem of the heavenly is truly one, and the esteem of the earthly is another, one esteem of the sun, and another esteem of the moon, and another esteem of the stars – for star differs from star in esteem. So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in disrespect, it is raised in esteem; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it has been written, “The first man Ad’am became a living being,” the last Ad’am a life-giving Spirit. The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Master from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.” (1 Corinthians 15:38-48 The Scriptures 1998+)

File:BambergApocalypse10Ascension.JPG
Adcension of Christ Jesus, the son of God - A page from the Gospel Lectionary portion of the Bamberg Apocalypse (Bamberg, Staatsbibliothek, MS A. II. 42)

“For Elohim, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts for the enlightening of the knowledge of the esteem of Elohim in the face of יהושע Messiah. And we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power might be of Elohim, and not of us – being hard pressed on every side,1 but not crushed; being perplexed, but not in despair; Footnote: 1See 1:8. being persecuted, but not forsaken; being thrown down, but not destroyed; always bearing about in the body the dying of the Master יהושע, that the life of יהושע might also be manifested in our body. For we, the living, are always delivered to death for the sake of יהושע, that the life of יהושע might also be manifested in our mortal flesh, so that death indeed is working in us, but the life in you. But having the same spirit of belief, according to what has been written, “I believed, therefore I spoke,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, knowing that He who raised up the Master יהושע shall also raise us up through יהושע, and shall present us with you. For all this is for your sake, so that favour, having spread through the many, would cause thanksgiving to overflow, unto the esteem of Elohim.” (2 Corinthians 4:6-15 The Scriptures 1998+)

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    Christ’s genealogy through Mary in Luke is taken right back to Adam. (Luke 3:38: “Which was (the son) of Enos, which was (the son) of Seth, which was (the son) of Adam, which was (the son) of God.”) If Christ was to be the offspring of Abraham he had to come into being after Abraham.  Abraham knew there was a saviour promised in Genesis 3:15.
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    The same word is used in Acts 26:5 (knew); Romans 11:2 (foreknew);2Peter 3:17 (know these things before).

    His pre-existence being only in the sense that he existed in the plan and purpose of God before the creation of the world.

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  29. Looking forward to the return of Jesus
  30. Why did Christ not reveal the exact time of his second coming?
  31. Summary on trinity
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23 thoughts on “Jesus begotten Son of God #20 Before and After”

  1. The disciples are said to already have the glory, but Jesus says that he HAD it suggesting that he no longer has it. So it doesn’t seem at all that Jesus had the glory in God’s plan in John 17:5, for the past tense is used. Did Jesus lose the glory? Where is it? How come he “HAD” it? It seems that if God’s plan was in view, Jesus would have said “I have had” or suggested something that shows that he presently had it.

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    1. In God’s Plan He started off with His Word. Therefore in the beginning was the Word, the ideas or thoughts as well as the expression of His thinking and wishing. God carried the Word in Himself because every thought every word, every expression, was part of Himself. (John 1:1)

      In His thoughts the fulfilment of the Creation was foreseen and with it God loved what He wanted to make. He knows everything, but He leaves opportunities to change the ways of what could happen. Though He loves all those who want to follow Him and live according to His Law. As such He could know about the man from Nazareth who was going to go righteously in the footsteps of the given directions by God to the people of Israel. As such He could already love Jesus before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)

      Jesus in John 17:5 speaks of the glory he ( “I” ) had with the Father before the world began.
      The answer is in (#Joh17:4): “I have brought you GLORY on earth BY COMPLETING the work you gave me to do.”

      “4 I have esteemed You on the earth, having accomplished the work You have given Me that I should do. 5 And now, esteem Me with Yourself, Father, with the esteem which I had with You before the world was. 6 I have revealed Your Name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have guarded Your Word. {(#Ps 138:2)}. 7 Now they have come to know that all You gave to Me, is from You. 8 Because the Words which You gave to Me, I have given to them. And they have received them, and have truly known that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I have been esteemed in them.” (John 17:4-10 The Scriptures 1998+)

      God conceived a plan and later brought it to fruition.
      Jesus foreseen in the Plan of God could at the beginning only have a prospective glory. Jesus was known before by the Creator. As in 1 Peter 1:20 ‘foreordained’ here means ‘foreknown’ or ‘pre-determined’. Also we are known by God since the foundation of the earth and our names in case we can be accepted to enter the Kingdom of God are already written in the Book of the Last Judgement, while those of the bad people shall not been written in the book of life. (Revelation 17:8)

      This book was only ‘written’, as it were, subsequent to the fall. From the fall, individuals have either been in it, or not. Prior to the fall, there was no need for such a record – there were only 2 individuals, and neither had sinned.

      The Lamb of God foreseen from the beginning and spoken of in the Garden of Eden ” was not actually slain much before 33 CE. But his glory was praised by all the holy prophets who, through the Holy Spirit, preached of the coming of Messiah “in the flesh”. The Lord’s coming “in the flesh” was the actual beginning of the work for which “the Lamb” indeed was slain.

      Only by beginning his active live Jesus could bring Gods vision to the people and has the time come that God can show the world who this simple man is. The first time Jesus receives glory is at his baptism where God declares him to be His beloved son. The moment Jesus begins his public life God can give him the glory which he would have had already in the thoughts of God, who knew this person could be the best one to fulfil the task foreseen at the fall, to make an end to death. But the people cannot yet know that Jesus is the man who is given to the people to do the task predicted in the earlier writings. Jesus asks God now (at the time when he was living and speaking) to glorify him because he made his Father’s name known unto the men God had given out of the world, though they also were already Gods from the beginning of the world. “They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.” Says Christ about them. (John 17:6)

      The saying that he had it before does not mean that he would not have it any more. When I say yesterday I had a bottle of milk in the fridge, it can be that the bottle is still standing in that fridge today and even tomorrow. Would I not say “I have had it” just when I do not have it any more?

      Jesus had the glory and still has it, but now the people have to get to know it. And glory has to be brought unto him now (at that time) on earth.

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      1. Christadelphian:

        I appreciate the response. I agree with much of what you say here, I just don’t think some factors are being considered. For example, in the New Testament and elsewhere, a perfect/present tense is used in a prolepsis without exception. This is the case in John 17:22 and elsewhere. However, the imperfect is used in John 17:5. Unless you are willing to argue this is the exception to the rule, this strongly argues against 17:5 being a prolepsis.

        Further, a prolepsis discusses a future matter as a present reality. That a present reality is the focal point of a prolepsis is demonstrated by the constant use of the present/perfect tense. However, as noted above, in 17:5 the perfect is not used. This means that 17:5 does not have a present reality and so is not a prolepsis.

        So from a literary and syntactical standpoint, a prolepsis in 17:5 should be rejected for good reasons.

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    2. Jesus had the glory and still has the glory of God. Jesus has it about the time in the beginning, so he used the past sense. But he did not say “I did have” or “I did had”, which at that time would have meant he had lost that glory at a certain time, but now it can (and probably did) that he did not loose the glory of God = so glory of God has ever been over Jesus. Today the Glory of God is still with him.

      “I glorified you on the earth. I have accomplished the work which you have given me to do. Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed. I revealed your name to the people whom you have given me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me. They have kept your word. Now they have known that all things whatever you have given me are from you, for the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew for sure that I came forth from you, and they have believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I don’t pray for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All things that are mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.” (John 17:4-10 WEB)

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    1. God has always waited a long time before taking action and punishing some one. Often He did also give the others a change to be saved because of the righteous in the group. God is not filled with hate, but when He undertook actions to punish persons it was to give an example to those who were punished and those around them. We have more the impression that God did not so much like to punish them, but preferred that they changed. For that reason He always had sent several prophets in the world to warn people. Often God was sad when people went wrong, so we do not think His actions were a matter of revenge. They were an action like a father has to reprimand his child.

      “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high. “‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no-one is pursuing you. “‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of the land yield their fruit. “‘If you remain hostile towards me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted. “‘If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile towards me, I myself will be hostile towards you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over.” (Leviticus 26:13-24 NIV)

      “Discipline your son, for in that there is hope; do not be a willing party to his death.” (Proverbs 19:18 NIV)

      “Discipline your son, and he will give you peace; he will bring delight to your soul.” (Proverbs 29:17 NIV)

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