Archive for January, 2012

TD Jakes Breaks Down the Trinity, Addresses Being Called a ‘Heretic’

Posted on January 30, 2012. Filed under: Christendom and Christianity, Jehovah יהוה YHWH JHVH God Elohim Yahweh Jahweh, Jesus Christ Jeshua the Messiah Jahushua | Tags: Elephant Room, Evangelicals, God, James MacDonald, Jesus, Mark Driscoll, Mars Hill Church, Modalism, Patripassianism, Sabellianism, T. D. Jakes, Trinity, United Pentecostal Church International |

United Pentecostal Church International logo - Image via Wikipedia

On the The Christian Post was published an article by Nicola Menzie we would like to share with our readers, plus with our brothers and sisters in the ecclesia.

The magazine lets apologetics author Mark Mittelberg warn that an increasing number of Christians are drifting away from their faith because of the lack of good answers to their spiritual questions and at the same time looks into the the second installment of the Elephant Room, a theological roundtable featuring blunt conversations among seven influential pastors.

Pastor James MacDonald, who shared moderator duties with Pastor Mark Driscoll, may have helped eliminate the fireworks that took place during Round 1 of the Elephant Room but there were plenty of repercussions before and after the Round 2 discussion.

MacDonald had drawn critics for inviting Bishop T. D. Jakes. Many Reformed Christians accused Jakes of being a “heretic” due to his purported belief in modalism – the insistence that members of the Holy Trinity are not three distinct, eternally co-existing persons, but only forms of God (a singular spirit), a doctrine held by Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals.

“It has cost me some relationships,” said MacDonald during one of the final sessions on Wednesday. “I thought I knew what the Lord wanted me to do, and I had good counsel. Craig Groeschel has a lot of wisdom, and he said to me, ‘Just because someone doesn’t want you in their circle anymore doesn’t mean they can’t be in yours.’”

Mark Driscoll, founding pastor at Mars Hill Church in Seattle, was raised Catholic. Some Catholics know about Jesus but according to him he wasn’t one of them. “A pastor’s daughter gave me a Bible. She’s now my wife.” he said. ” I was reading Romans in college for a philosophy class. I finally understood sin is pride. I thought it was just bad moral behavior and I considered myself fairly moral. I had a whole lot of pride and still do. God convicted me of my sin and opened my heart to Jesus reading the book of Romans. So, a Catholic boy reading the book of Romans. Go figure. Jesus made sense and I had to go find a church.”

James MacDonald, founding pastor of Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago, gave his life to Jesus Christ when he was 7 years old. “It was February of 1967. It was after a Sunday night service. Our pastor had preached the Gospel and I was too fearful to go down front during the invitation. But when I went home I was still under conviction and I went out into the kitchen and asked my parents, and my mom led me to Christ. I wandered from the Lord during my teenage years, and though I tried to let go of the Lord, He never let go of me. I had more return experiences, but I know that I know that God knows that I am a child of God today.”

(L-R) T.D. Jakes, Jack Graham, Mark Driscoll, James MacDonald, Wayne Cordeiro, Steven Furtick, and Crawford Loritts appear at "The Elephant Room" 2012 roundtable on Jan. 25, 2012.

MacDonald and Driscoll organized for the first time ‘The Elephant Room discussions’ in 2011 and believe that by talking openly about their differences in series of “blunt conversations”, pastors and church leaders can assist in edifying the Church.

This year the seven pastors participating in the event all agreed that in a Gospel presentation there are five elements that are key: recognition of sin, that Jesus lived without sin, Jesus’ death and resurrection, repentance, and faith.

Weighing in on the debate, Bishop T.D. Jakes of The Potter’s House in Dallas warned that pastors run into problems when they start comparing different styles and methods of Gospel presentations and ministry.

“We are in an age where we want to come up with a recipe for everything,” he said. “When we try to get methodology down to a science we defy the mystery of the Gospel.”

Prior to Wednesday’s event, Pastor James MacDonald – also the moderator

of the discussions along with Driscoll – had drawn critics for inviting Bishop T. D. Jakes to the Elephant Room, in regards to his beliefs about the Godhead.

Many Reformed Christians accuse Jakes of being a “heretic” due to his purported belief in modalism – the insistence that members of the Holy Trinity are not three distinct, eternally co-existing persons, but only forms of God (a singular spirit), a doctrine held by Oneness Apostolic Pentecostals.

For that reason, conservative evangelicals and leaders at The Gospel Coalition allegedly began pressuring MacDonald to “pull the plug” on Bishop Jakes’ appearance at the Elephant Room conference, which eventually led MacDonald to resign as a TGC council member. Bishop T.D. Jakes, pastor of The Potter’s House megachurch in Dallas, Texas, founded by Jakes in 1996, was put on the spot during a theological roundtable Wednesday in regards to his beliefs about the Godhead and why, in some Christian circles, he is considered a “heretic.”

Despite the tension, MacDonald stuck with his decision and kept Jakes in line as a speaker.

During Round 2 of the Elephant Room, the Jakes finally broke down his view of the Trinity and also addressed him being labeled a “heretic.”

Jakes himself admitted that he once clung to a modalist position due to his background – he was converted and raised at an Oneness church. But he believes differently now, embracing the conservative evangelical doctrine of the Trinity: one God, three persons (though he said he’s not crazy about the word “persons.”)

Modalism, a 3rd-century teaching accredited to theologian Sabellius, purports that the members of the Trinity are not three distinct, eternally co-existing persons, but that instead God, a singular spirit, discloses Himself at different times in three modes – a doctrine espoused by Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal and United Pentecostal Church Internationaldenominations.

When asked a series of questions by Driscoll clarifying his doctrine, Jakes affirmed that there was “very little difference” between what he believed and what the Mars Hill
pastor believed.

(L-R) T.D. Jakes, James MacDonald and Mark Driscoll appear at "The Elephant Room" 2012 roundtable on Jan. 25, 2012.

In October Jakes tweeted to his followers the following message: “God brings us together so that He can dwell in the midst of our unity, the church must lift up a standard of unity.”

Silva, an ordained Southern Baptist Convention minister, also questioned Jakes by tweeting to The Potter’s House pastor : “@BishopJakes Which God are you talking about? The Triune God of the Bible, or the ficticious god of modalism? Which one do you believe in?”

It was then that a minor debate ensued between Jakes and Silva regarding his beliefs about the Holy Trinity, with Jakes tweeting: “@RealKenSilva Ken I believe in Jesus
Christ the only begotten of the Father. I believe in the Holy Spirit sent to the world by the Father!”

Jakes addressed the issue already in 2000 in an op-ed article in Christianity Today, in which he wrote: “I believe in one God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe these three have distinct and separate functions—so separate that each has individual attributes, yet are one. I do not believe in three Gods.”

Criticism was hurled at MacDonald for inviting Jakes to be one of the seven pastors featured in The Elephant Room’s new round of conversations because of the Woman, Thou Art Loosed author’s perceived stance regarding the Holy Trinity.

MacDonald denied on his website that inviting Jakes to The Elephant Room was essentially an endorsement of the Texas minister’s doctrinal beliefs, as he had been accused. MacDonald, under the title “I do not agree that T.D. Jakes is a Modalist,” wrote in a September post on his website:

“I affirm the doctrine of the Trinity as I find it in Scripture. I believe this doctrine is revealed in the Bible and accurately expressed in historic confessionalism. T.D. Jakes website states that he believes God has existed eternally in three manifestations which is modalist language. I am looking forward to hearing him explain his position currently and how that may have changed from things he has said historically. … I believe T.D. Jakes shows immense humility by being
willing to step outside his own circles to interact with christian leaders and discuss his theology. … We are greatly honored that T.D. Jakes has agreed to participate.”

Tim Challies, one of the most influential and widely read evangelical Christian bloggers, also commented on the controversy recently.

While confessing that he does not know for certain if Jakes is a modalist, Challies wrote: “What is clear is that whatever Jakes believes about the Trinity, he has shown a continual reluctance to affirm a standard, time-proven creedal statement of trinitarian orthodoxy and that he has often used the language of modalism. This gives us valid cause for concern.”

As MacDonald and Challies also noted, the express purpose of The Elephant Room is to foster relationships with and open discussions among Christians who hold disagreements about Scripture.

During Wednesday’s “Elephant Room” conversation on the “majors” of Christian doctrine, Jakes explained where he falls on the issue.

“My father was a Methodist and my mother was a Baptist,” he explained. “I was raised in the Baptist church … but I didn’t really have a real committed experience with Christ until my father died. When my father died, I had a real experience with Christ, a real conversion with Christ and I had it in a Oneness church.”

The minister emphasized to Driscoll that the Pentecostal congregation he was referencing, which he pointed out was not a UPCI church, was home to “Christians who believe in Jesus Christ, believe he died, rose from the dead, is coming back again — all the same things you do.”

“How they describe and explain the Godhead in a traditional Oneness sense is very different than how traditional Trinitarians describe the Gospel. I was in that church for a number of years and raised in that church for a number of years,” Jakes said.

“As I began to progress, I began to understand that some of the dogma that I was taught in the Oneness movement was very dogmatic, very narrow and not the very best
description of how I now understand the Godhead,” he continued.

“My struggle as I was ordained in the Oneness church was in several passages – sometimes the doctrine fit, sometimes it doesn’t. When the doctrine becomes the primary thing, you force it into fitting in places where it doesn’t fit. I really at this point in my life don’t want to force my theology to fit in my denomination.”

Referencing Gen. 1:26, Luke 3:21-22, John 14:11 and other passages that he believes point to Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit as having unique distinctions, Jakes revealed: “That began to make me re-think some of my ideas and some of the things I was taught.”

(Photo: The Elephant Room/Alyssa Armour)

Bishop T.D. Jakes appears at “The Elephant Room” 2012 roundtable on Jan. 25, 2012.

“I got kind of quiet about it for a while. When you’re a leader and you’re in a position of authority sometimes you have to back up … for a minute and really think those things through.”

Driscoll, near the end of the discussion, pointedly asked Jakes if he believes the Bible is “the perfect, inspired, final authority Word of God,” to which Jakes responded “absolutely.”

Driscoll then posed several other creedal questions in quick succession, to which Jakes responded in the affirmative:

“You believe there is one God, three persons: Father, Son and Spirit? You believe Jesus was fully God, fully man?”

“You believe he died on the cross in our place, for our sins?”

“You believe he bodily rose from death?”

“You believe that he is the judge of the living and the dead?”

“You believe that apart from Jesus there’s no salvation?”

Jakes told Driscoll once more that “there is very little difference between what I believe and what you believe.”

“For you, the issue between Trinitarianism and modalism at its essence is one God manifesting Himself successively in three ways, or one God, three persons, simultaneously existing eternally. Your best understanding now … would you say it’s ‘one God manifesting Himself in three ways’ or ‘one God in three persons?’” Driscoll asked.

“I believe that neither one of them totally get it for me,” Jakes revealed, yet expressing his agreement with the description of “one God, three persons.”

“Here is why I am there. I am not crazy about the word ‘persons’ … most people who know me know that … my doctrinal statement is really no different from yours except for the word ‘manifest’ instead of ‘person,’ which you describe as modalist and I describe as Pauline,” Jakes insisted, before quoting 1 Timothy 3:16.

The passage in the English Standard Version reads: “Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.”

“That is what Paul describes as a ‘mystery’ and I don’t think we should do that,” the bishop said. “Now, Paul is not a modalist, but he does not think it is robbery to the divinity of God to say God was ‘manifest’ in the flesh,” Jakes argued.

“When we start talking about that sort of thing, I think that it is important that we realize that there are distinctives between the Father and the working of the Son: the Father
didn’t bleed, the Father didn’t die, only in the person of Jesus Christ, coming back for us in the person of Jesus Christ … Jesus Christ has been with us, but only indwelt in the person of the Holy Spirit. We are baptized into the Body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is consistent with my belief system.”

He added, “We are taught in our society that if we disagree within a movement, we leave … we sever. I still have fellowship associations, relationships and positions within and without Oneness and Trinitarian movements because I believe that until we bridge the gap between our thinking, and humble both sides and say ‘we’re both attempting to describe a God we love, that we serve and that we have not seen, and that we are viewing Him through the context of the Scriptures but that with a glass darkly’ – why should I fall out and hate and throw names at you when all that I know and understand, be it very Orthodox, is still through a glass darkly?”

Jakes acknowledged that he is considered a “heretic” in many communities, including Oneness and Trinitarian circles, yet it does not bother him, as he is more focused on the Body of Christ working as one unit in love, despite disagreements – the one thing, he asserted, that Christians have the power to do, but fail to accomplish.

“I think the time has come for us to be willing to take the heat to have a conversation, because if we do not do this and we continue to divide ourselves by ourselves and compare ourselves with ourselves, we do it at the expense of decreasing numbers of new Christians in our country. We have to mobilize,” he asserted.

“We have got to learn to talk to each other or we’re going to die,” the megachurch pastor insisted.

Please do read:

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Prior to Wednesday’s event, Pastor James MacDonald – also the moderator of the discuss

Bishop T. D. Jakes says he now embraces the Trinity Doctrine: T. D. Jakes was interviewed by pastor Mark Driscoll and pastor James MacDonald on January 27, 2012 at Harvest Bible Chapel (rootedinchrist.org)
In fact at Berean Perspective we have two articles that have been written dealing with what T. D. Jakes has said he believes concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. T. D. Jakes did not affirm the doctrine of the Trinity and he affirmed the Oneness perspective, thus we labeled him as being in the sect of Modalism. (Oneness Pentecostalism) We believe that Modalism (Oneness Pentecostalism, Jesus Only, United Pentecostal Church International) is a false teaching and has many false doctrines. (check out Oneness Pentecostalism) Now, after reading what was posted from the Baptist Press post (affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention) I am somewhat encouraged and at the same time still not at ease with what T. D. Jakes believes concerning the Trinity Doctrine.
TD Jakes Breaks Down the Trinity, Addresses Being Called a ‘Heretic’ By Nicola Menzie (trinityspeaks.wordpress.com)
T.D. Jakes is Heretical Concerning Modalism Whether he Believes it or Not (slaughteringthesheep.wordpress.com)
Apprising Ministries continues documenting the sad slide of evanjellyfish deeper into apostasy as spiritual darkness grows.
There is a spiritual form of fascism now being perpetrated within the mainstream of the church visible. It began circa 1997 with the hatching in hell of the neo-liberal cult of the Emergent Church aka the Emerging Church and spreads its evil spores via Contemplative Spirituality/Mysticism (CSM).
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The use of the term manifestations is the language of classic modalism or Oneness Pentecostalism, not orthodox Christianity. Here’s what we do know, Jakes is with Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies, Inc. (HGAAA) where he is Vice Prelate.
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Well the fact is, modalism—aka Sabellianism, after Sabellius—cannot be reconciled with the Biblical Trinitarian position; i.e. it’s a different god, which is no god at all (Isaiah 43:10; Galatians 4:8).
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Yet another aspect of Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism / Sabellianism is Patripassianism, which is the view that it was God the Father who became incarnate, suffered, died, and was resurrected. Patripassianism essentially teaches that God the Father became His own Son.

With all that said, Sabellianism, Modalism, Monarchianism (dynamic and modalistic), and Patripassianism are all unbiblical understandings of the relationship between the Persons of the Trinity. (Online source)
Changed Heart for @StevenFurtick & @BishopJakes: Conviction in The #ElephantRoom. Lessons for dads? (orangedad.com)
These guys are not the only Christian leaders who have been the object of jokes, sarcasm, or just outright accusations of “blasphemy” by me. I am a very, very judgmental person. I hide behind my crappy attitude by saying that it’s in the name of “sound doctrine.” God, heal my heart.
In The Elephant Room With Trevin Wax (garyware.me)
Elephant Room 2: Live-Blog Session 1 “With a Little Help from My Friends” + Elephant Room 2: Live-Blog Session 2 “Can’t Buy Me Love” + Elephant Room 2: Live-Blog Session 3 “Hard Day’s Night” + Elephant Room 2: Live-Blog Session 4 “Ticket to Ride” + Elephant Room 2: Live-Blog Session 5 “Come Together”: In what ways does being a minority worshiper hinder worship and service in the church? What churches are achieving success at breaking down these walls, and how? What do you see the other pastor doing better than your church does it?+ Elephant Room 2: Live-Blog Session 6 “Help” + Elephant Room 2: Live-Blog Session 7 “We Can Work It Out” + Elephant Room 2: Live-Blog Session 8 Speed Round
An Elephant Room Roundup (garyware.me)
Trevin Wax offers a summary reflection after his marathon effort posting notes on each Elephant Room session.
Carl Trueman notes that apparently all the authorisation a celebrity pastor needs is the affirmation of other celebrity pastors and that a few questions in a talk show format doesn’t really equate to a probing examination of someone’s theology.
Ed Stetzer offers his perspective.
Frank Turk observes that there are a few other elephants in Jakes’ living room which were rather conveniently ignored so everyone could feel the love.
Steven Furtick and Maturity (theologicalarsenal.wordpress.com)
When the question “Where do you see the Church in 20 years?” was posed Furtick quietly thought for a second, smiled and said “I’m really not old enough to speak to that… I’ve only been around for 31 years and I just don’t have the experience to answer that question.” He then went on to add that he is hopeful for the future of the Church and that he believes that we build the future, and that he would do his best to serve and honor God to the best of his abilities.
Jakes’ Small Beginnings (endtimeebookreviews.wordpress.com)
When he speaks of his humble beginnings, Jakes speak with much fervor and passion, as the congregation agrees with him and can totally relate to what he is talking about.
BEWARE! Rosebrough a No-Go, Bro! (justificationbygrace.com)
most of the church today has bought into the idea that challenging ANY idea is unloving and wrong. We adamantly reject this view. In fact, we think the essence of being loving is to point people to the truth, and away from lies and doctrines of demons. It is truth that sets people free. Lies cannot set people free.
Did I Really Want to Go to Elephant Room 2? (jonwellman.com)
E.R. 2.0 has run into its share of missteps, not the least of which was the invitation of T.D. Jakes.
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There is an opportunity to make much of Christ in every situation, and E.R. 2.0 is no exception. We’ll see what happens. However, I do fear for viewers and attenders who are not believers or who are easily swayed, and I pray for them. Some points of view are simply not doctrinal and need to be denounced, not discussed.
James MacDonald’s Elephant Room Conference – The Musical (slaughteringthesheep.wordpress.com)
Here is a video from the gang at Wretched Radio about James MacDonald’s Elephant Room Conference, and it is put in a perspective that can only be done by Todd Friel and the crew.
Mark Driscoll And The Mars Hill Churches: When Discipline Becomes Control Becomes … ? (bigcircumstance.com)
Bill Kinnon understandably asks why that bastion of the neo-Reformed movement, the Gospel Coalition, hasn’t spoken out against Mars Hill. Driscoll is one of their council members, and they have had resignations before on grounds of doctrinal controversy, as Bill points out.
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On the surface, Mars Hill’s devotion to neo-Reformed theology still puts it in the Christian mainstream, which is why I can raise issues about whether the Gospel Coalition is doing anything about one of its Council members. But some cults began with orthodox Christian leaders who then deviated – David Berg of the Children of God could be a case in point here. Mars Hill cannot be regarded as unorthodox, and many of its currently contentious doctrines have been held by large numbers of Christians for a long time. Theologically, it would be wrong for Christians to call it a cult.

Mark Driscoll
Heretical Modalism and T.D. Jakes Doctrine On the Trinity (antagoniz.wordpress.com)
The United Pentecostal Church (UPCI) is the largest Oneness group in America. They officially deny the doctrine of the Trinity saying: In distinction to the doctrine of the Trinity, the UPCI holds to a oneness view of God. It views the Trinitarian concept of God, that of God eternally existing as three distinctive persons, as inadequate and a departure from the consistent and emphatic biblical revelation of God being one…Thus God is manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration.
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Again, notice the word “manifest,” which Jakes and the UPCI both use. In other words, the Son of God is the manifestation of the Father in the flesh. The Son is not eternal, nor pre-existent. Jesus is the Father and the Son: Father in his divinity and Son in his humanity. Hence, the Trinity is said to be a misunderstanding of the biblical teaching.
Thabiti Anyabwile addresses McDonald, Jakes and The Elephant Room (theexpositor.wordpress.com)
“Thabiti Anyabwile, Senior Pastor of First Baptist Church of Grand Cayman in the Grand Cayman Islands and a Council member with The Gospel Coalition, posts a tremedous article on The Gospel Coalition website titled Collateral Damage in the Invitation of T.D. Jakes to the Elephant Room, concerning the James McDonald/T.D. Jakes/Elephant Room issue and I think Pastor Anyabwile hits the nail right on the head!” writes the expositor.
Red Alert on Code Orange (preacherfrank.wordpress.com)
The presence of Jakes should be reason enough for the discerning Christian to avoid this event. Even if the rest of the speakers were true teachers, the presence of a false teacher pretty much ruins the whole thing.
How Tall is T.D. Jakes Height and Weight (celebrityheightandweight.com)
T.D. Jakes stands 6 feet and 3 inches tall and weighs 240 pounds. Born in South Charleston, West Virginia, T.D. Jakes opened his first church in a storefront in Montgomery, West Virginia in 1979. By 1982, the parish had grown enough that he was able to focus on his ministry full-time.
+ T.D. Jakes Videos
The Leader of the Episcopal Church is a Heretic (zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com)
There’s not a driplet of Christian orthodoxy which permits her theory or accepts it as legitimate. Either access to God the Father is exclusively available through Christ or it isn’t. It’s either/or not both/and as the Episcopalian Arch-Heretic would have it (along with many pseudo-Christians these days).
Lot’s of Christians Can Only Handle ‘Milk’ (zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com)
The inability of many to distinguish between good doctrine and bad, good biblical exegesis and bad, good theology and bad, is all too common these days (as in ancient times as well). That’s exactly why people like Mark Driscoll, Ted Haggard, TD Jakes, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, and the bevy of heretics presently passing themselves off as Christian teachers get away with it and aren’t ‘called out’ by either their churches or the Church at large.

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Christ having glory

Posted on January 30, 2012. Filed under: Being Christian, following Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ Jeshua the Messiah Jahushua | Tags: Before Abraham, Begotten, Book of the Last Judgement, Glorification, Glory of God, Glory of Jesus, Glory of man, Gods Plan, Gods Word, Holy Spirit, Lamb of God, Pneuma, Pre-existence, Seed of Abraham, Seed of Eve, Virgin Mary |

In the previous article Jesus begotten Son of God #20 Before and After we mentioned John 17:5 where Jesus spoke of the glory which he “had” before the foundation of the world.

In the replies to that article we also pointed out to Gods Plan in which the Almighty Creator foresaw many things and gave the world the opportunity to develop partly according human wishes but having to become to an end according the wish of the Creator God the Father.

God, who has been for ever started off with His Word, which embedded His Plan. God’s thinking was brought to the people by the voice of the Holy Spirit (the Power of God) and by His messengers like the angels, prophets and priests.

It was God Himself who carried the Word, the ideas or thoughts as well as the expression of His thinking and wishing, in Himself because every thought every word, every expression, was part of Himself.

All fits marvelously well in the Cretion of God Almighty, in which the human is just a tiny spot of the universe, where we are able to find the glory of Jesus Christ the Saviour of us all.

In His thoughts the fulfilment of the Creation was foreseen and with it God loved what He wanted to make.

Being the Creator of everything and having all power He knows everything, but He leaves opportunities to change the ways of what could happen. Though He loves all those who want to follow Him and live according to His Law.

God conceived a plan and later brought it to fruition. In Gods Plan after the First Sin He took care there would come a solution to get rid of the consequences from the Fall, and out of the seed of the woman, the virgin Mary, would come the person, the Emmanuel Jesus Jeshua, who could save the the world, by bruising the tale of evil. this man would become from the tribe of the People of God, Israel in the lineage of Abraham and David. In case we want to belong to that Saviour, the Messiah, we can come seed of Abraham ourselves and be part of those people who shall be able to enter the Kingdom of God, because our names shall be in the Book of Life. (Revelation 17:8)

Therefore we should recognise that person who was foreseen in Gods Plan and was, as those who were written from the beginning, in the Book of Life, already sanctified by God before the first Adam, Cain, Seth, Methusalah, Noach, Sem, Terah, Abraham, Isaac, Samuel, David, Jacob and others where born. Out of Abraham would come a whole generation of which would later come Jesus, out of whom the New Generation would be born.

“I will put animosity between you and the woman, and between your descendant and her descendant; he will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”” (Genesis 3:15 CJB)
““the parable is this: the seed is god’s message.” (Luke 8:11 CJB)
“in other words, it is not the physical children who are children of god, but the children the promise refers to who are considered seed.” (Romans 9:8 CJB)
“also, as Yesha`yahu said earlier, “if \@ADONAI-Tzva’ot\@ had not left us a seed, we would have become like S’dom, we would have resembled ‘Amora.” {#Isa 1:9}” (Romans 9:29 CJB)
“now the promises were made to Avraham and to his seed. it doesn’t say, “and to seeds,” as if to many; on the contrary, it speaks of one – “and to your seed” {#Ge 12:7 13:15 17:7 24:7} – and this “one” is the Messiah.” (Galatians 3:16 CJB)

“also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29 CJB)
“the glory which you have given to me, I have given to them; so that they may be one, just as we are one—” (John 17:22 CJB)

““father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am; so that they may see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” (John 17:24 CJB)

Jesus foreseen in the Plan of God both him and the disciples “had” a glory in promise and prospect. John writing his gospel in Jewish fashion speaks of a pre-existing Purpose, not a pre-existing second Person.

Jesus known before by the Creator as we are already known by Him, did as such exist in the Plan and in the Spirit of God before Abraham or David were born. God also knew of what Jesus would be capable of doing, and trusted that this human could bring the Promises made to the many people in previous ages to a good end.

As we are known by God since the foundation of the earth and our names are already written in the Book of the Last Judgement, we are mentioned in it with the deeds we shall commit as Jesus is also written in it with the works he did. But Jesus his works were special and received special attention from the Creator who also helped Jesus Christ to do all those miracles as sign that God was with him.

As such, knowing the will of Jesus to give his body for all sinners, God gave him glory from the beginning of times. Therefore that glory was already with God before Abraham was born, and Jesus could say “he was before Abraham” and “he had glory”. Though when he says he “had” that does not mean at the time of his saying his glory by God would have been finished. Other-while he would have said “the glory I did have”.

Probably the glory of God for Jesus can be found as well in that Book of life, which was only ‘written’, as it were, subsequent to the fall. From the fall, individuals have either been in it, or not. Prior to the fall, there was no need for such a record – there were only 2 individuals, and neither had sinned, but the many children of Adam and Eve which were going to fill the Paradise of God would already be in Gods head.

The Lamb of God foreseen from the beginning and spoken of in the Garden of Eden ” was not actually slain much before 33 CE. But his glory was praised by all the holy prophets who, through the Holy Spirit, preached of the coming of Messiah “in the flesh”. Jesus his coming “in the flesh” was the actual beginning of the work for which “the Lamb” indeed was slain.

As such God could know about the man from Nazareth who was going to go righteously in the footsteps of the ‘given directions by God’ to the people of Israel. As such He could already love Jesus before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)

Jesus in John 17:5 speaks of the glory he ( “I” ) had with the Father before the world began.
The answer is in (#Joh17:4): “I have brought you GLORY on earth BY COMPLETING the work you gave me to do.”

“4 I have esteemed You on the earth, having accomplished the work You have given Me that I should do. 5 And now, esteem Me with Yourself, Father, with the esteem which I had with You before the world was. 6 I have revealed Your Name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have guarded Your Word. {(#Ps 138:2)}. 7 Now they have come to know that all You gave to Me, is from You. 8 Because the Words which You gave to Me, I have given to them. And they have received them, and have truly known that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I have been esteemed in them.” (John 17:4-10 The Scriptures 1998+)

Only by beginning his active live Jesus could bring Gods vision to the people. For God the time has come only at that moment that He can show to His people who the Blessed Anointed is who can save the world. It is also by the signs God gives to the world that we can get to know that that man Jesus, Jeshua, child of Joseph and Maria (Mary/Miriam) from Nazareth is the promised Messiah, where the world had to wait for such a long time. Know the great day dawned that can show the world who has His glory.

The first time Jesus receives glory is at his baptism where God declares this ‘son of man‘ to be His only and unique beloved son. As touching the election, Jesus Christ and his followers shall be the one loved for the Fathers’ sakes and be able to get eternal life.

““for god so loved the world that he gave his only and unique son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed.” (John 3:16 CJB)
“when you are persecuted in one town, run away to another. yes indeed; I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Isra’el before the son of man comes.” (Matthew 10:23 CJB)
“and a voice from heaven said, “this is my son, whom I love; I am well pleased with him.”” (Matthew 3:17 CJB)

The moment Jesus begins his public life God can give him the glory which he would have had already in the thoughts of God, who knew this person could be the best one to fulfil the task foreseen at the fall, to make an end to death.

For the world it was important that God showed the world who the Saviour was, because other while the people would find it to difficult to recognise the promised Saviour or Messiah. In order for the people to know that Jesus is the man who is given to the people to do the task predicted in the earlier writings God gives His beloved son attributes which shall enable him to get people around him, to listen and to see the works God does by the hands of his son. Jesus also asks God now (at the time when he was living and speaking) to glorify him because he made his Father’s name known unto the men. The people Jesus is able to speak to in parables and with the clear words already brought by the prophets from earlier times, were not only Jews but could enhance people out of the world which were already belonging to God from the beginning of the world and written in the Book of Life as those who made the right choice in their life. “They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.” Says Christ about them. (John 17:6)

The saying that he had the glory before does not mean that he would not have it any more. When we say “yesterday I had a bottle of milk in the fridge”, it can be that the bottle is still standing in that fridge today and shall still be standing there tomorrow. In case the bottle would be empty and not be standing in the fridge any more we would say “I have had a bottle of milk standing in the fridge” .

Jesus had the glory and still has it, but now the people have to get to know it. And glory has to be brought unto him now (at that time) on earth. Without God showing the people that Jesus has the glory by his Father, people would not know it and would have it difficult to accept him, Jesus, as the promised one spoken of by many prophets before Roman times.

Jesus did not say “I did have” or “I did had”, which at that time would have meant he had lost that glory at a certain time, but now it can (and probably did) that he did not loose the glory of God = so glory of God has ever been over Jesus. Today the Glory of God is still with him. In the same context (vv. 22 and 24) that same glory has already “been given” (past tense) to disciples not yet born at the time when Jesus spoke.

““I glorified you on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. now, father, glorify me alongside yourself. give me the same glory I had with you before the world existed. “I made your name known to the people you gave me out of the world. they were yours, you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. now they know that everything you have given me is from you, because the words you gave me I have given to them, and they have received them. they have really come to know that I came from you, and they have come to trust that you sent me. “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given to me, because they are yours. indeed, all I have is yours, and all you have is mine, and in them I have been glorified.” (John 17:4-10 CJB)
“the glory which you have given to me, I have given to them; so that they may be one, just as we are one—” (John 17:22 CJB)
““father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am; so that they may see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” (John 17:24 CJB)

As the Great Architect, God can envisage the glory of the saints, the kingdom, and Christ before their actual existence. (See Acts 15:18; Matt. 25:34; John 17:5, 24; Eph. 1:4; Heb. 4:3).

“says \@ADONAI\@, who is doing these things.’ {#am 9:11-12} all this has been known for ages.” (Acts 15:18 CJB)
““then the king will say to those on his right, ‘come, you whom my father has blessed, take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.” (Matthew 25:34 CJB)
“now, father, glorify me alongside yourself. give me the same glory I had with you before the world existed.” (John 17:5 CJB)
“in the Messiah he chose us in love before the creation of the universe to be holy and without defect in his presence.” (Ephesians 1:4 CJB)
“for it is we who have trusted who enter the rest. it is just as he said, “and in my anger, I swore that they would not enter my rest.” {#Ps 95:11} he swore this even though his works have been in existence since the founding of the universe.” (Hebrews 4:3 CJB)

“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” (John 17:5 NIV)
“”Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.” (John 17:24 NIV)
“that have been known for ages. {17,18 Some manuscripts things’—18 known to the Lord for ages is his work}” (Acts 15:18 NIV)
“”Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.” (Matthew 25:34 NIV)
“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love” (Ephesians 1:4 NIV)
“Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’” {Psalm 95:11; also in verse 5} And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world.” (Hebrews 4:3 NIV)

As Jesus is glorified by his Father God the Almighty, the Holy Spirit or Pneuma is on him. By becoming like Christ we ourselves also can receive the Holy Spirit or Pneuma of God and receive Gods glory.

Out of himself Jesus was unable to do anything. Therefore he needed the glory of God to be with him. He needed God’s Spirit to be with him so that he could make the right decisions. Jesus was aware he needed this glory of his Father and had no desire to do what was pleasing to himself? For him it was clear that he wanted only to do what was pleasing to Him who had sent him. (John 5:30). He knew he was the special product from his Father in heaven. The people had to get to know now this prophet given from among Gods people.

By the glorification of Jesus by God the voice of the Most High could come to the ears of those who wanted to listen and hear. This prophet from among ourselves (the common people), like you, was put God words in his mouth, and this prophet and Master Teacher said to them who listened or still want to listen whatever God gave him orders to say. And whoever does not give ear to Gods words, which came to our fathers through the prophets, in different parts and in different ways, which Jesus said in God’s name, will be responsible to to the Creator of all things, Jehovah God. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Hebrews 1:1)

This man of God Jeshua or Jesus of Nazareth, who, being the outshining of his glory, the true image of his substance, supporting all things by the word of his power, having given himself as an offering making clean from sins, took his seat at the right hand of God in heaven;” He always had the glory of God and was given the Holy Spirit, so that he went about doing good and making well all who were troubled by evil spirits, for God was with him. (Hebrews 1:3 ; Acts 10:38)

The man who had the glory by God from the beginning, when he was under the people on this earth, had to be recognised as the ‘man of God’ and as the one who could bring all those things which are in the writings of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms about him, to be put into effect. (Luke 24:44)

After Jesus , servant by the purpose of God, died he was glorified even more by being lifted up to the right hand of God, and having the Father’s word that the Holy Spirit would come, he had sent this thing, which the chosen ones could see and have knowledge of. (Acts 2:33 ) By that glorification of Jesus we too can now become servants by the purpose of God to give effect to the word of God.

“I can’t do a thing on my own. as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is right; because I don’t seek my own desire, but the desire of the one who sent me.” (John 5:30 CJB)
“for I have come down from heaven to do not my own will but the will of the one who sent me.” (John 6:38 CJB)
““\@ADONAI\@ will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. you are to pay attention to him, just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested \@ADONAI\@ your god, ‘don’t let me hear the voice of \@ADONAI\@ my god any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!’ on that occasion \@ADONAI\@ said to me, ‘they are right in what they are saying. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him. whoever doesn’t listen to my words, which he will speak in my name, will have to account for himself to me.” (Deuteronomy 18:15-19 CJB)
“in days gone by, god spoke in many and varied ways to the fathers through the prophets.” (Hebrews 1:1 CJB)
“this son is the radiance of the \@sh’khinah\@, the very expression of god’s essence, upholding all that exists by his powerful word; and after he had, through himself, made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of \@haG’dulah baM’romim\@. {#Ps 110:1}” (Hebrews 1:3 CJB)
“how god anointed Yeshua from Natzeret with the \@Ruach\@ \@haKodesh\@ and with power; how Yeshua went about doing good and healing all the people oppressed by the adversary, because god was with him.” (Acts 10:38 CJB)

“Yeshua said to them, “this is what I meant when I was still with you and told you that everything written about me in the \@torah\@ of Moshe, the prophets and the psalms had to be fulfilled.”” (Luke 24:44 CJB)

““moreover, he has been exalted to the right hand of god; has received from the father what he promised, namely, the \@Ruach haKodesh\@; and has poured out this gift, which you are both seeing and hearing.” (Acts 2:33 CJB)
“I became a servant of the good news because god gave me this work to do for your benefit. the work is to make fully known the message from god,” (Colossians 1:25 CJB)

God has revealed his glory in the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us, the face of Christ. This revelation of glory contains within it the seeds of our mission. We, with unveiled faces, should reflect the glory of the Most High, Creator of all things. In order for our faces, that is our persons, to reflect to the world His glory, our faces must be turned to Christ. Not a false Christ, not an idol of our own creation or someone else’s creation, which has no glory.

We are created in the image of God: male and female. Christ, himself being an image of God, honours this creation by celebrating a marriage, revealing the emptiness of sinful humanity but also the re-creative power and glory of God.

God by giving his glory to Jesus and showing His glory to Jesus when Jesus was on earth, makes it clear for us that he is the one who totally deserves full glory of God. By the Word became flesh, God’s Plan having become human reality, we have seen his glory. Christ’s time had and has come. The glory of Christ Jesus shall also still be coming. He will come in glory. He saves the best for last. Let us therefore look out for this majestic glory, hopefully to come soon.

JOHN 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”

PROBLEM: If Christ had glory with God before the world was, then obviously it is argued he must have existed before his birth on earth.

SOLUTION*:

1. Stress is often placed on Jesus’ statement that he had glory with the Father. The J.W.’s in their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translate this verse as follows: “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” But the Greek preposition “parà” translated “with” in the A.V. and “alongside” in the N.W.T. also occurs in John 1:6: “There was a man sent from {Greek: parà} God, whose name was John.” If the preposition in John 17:5 requires the literal pre-existence of Christ, then likewise it requires the literal pre-existence of John the Baptist. It is interesting that the N.W.T. inconsistently translates John 1:6 as follows: “There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God: his name was John.” There is no hint of pre-existence here.

2. How could Jesus have glory with his Father “before the world was” if he did not literally pre-exist? An illustration is helpful: An architect sees and knows the beautiful details of his proposed construction before the site is prepared, or the foundation-stone laid. But God is the great Architect and in His divine plan, Christ was “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8)—the chief cornerstone “foreordained before the foundation of the world”. (1 Peter 1:20). The building will duly be fitly framed together (Eph. 2:21) to constitute its part in the “kingdom prepared … from the foundation of the world.” (Matt. 25:34). Christ was “foreordained”, but not formed until born of the virgin Mary in the days of Herod the king. Likewise, the glory he had with his Father was in the divine plan of the great Architect. It was the subject of prophetic testimony “when it {the Spirit of Christ} testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow.” (1 Peter 1:11 cf. John 12:41).

3.      Scripture speaks as if others pre-existed, as well as Christ. Consider the following:
a.      Of believers, Paul wrote:
i.      “Whom he did foreknow.” (Rom. 8:29).
ii.      “He had afore prepared {note the past tense} unto glory.” (Rom. 9:23 cf. 2 Tim. 1:9).
iii.      “He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.” (Eph. 1:4).
b.      Of Jeremiah, the LORD said: “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer. 1:5).

But who would contend for the pre-existence of Jeremiah and other believers because the language employed states that God knew them before they were born? Similarly, the language of John 17:5 must be understood in terms of this background. Unless the principle is recognized that God “calleth those things which be not as though they were” (Rom. 4:17), confusion will result in Biblical interpretation, as it does with the wrested pre-existence interpretation given to this passage in John’s gospel.

4. The context is sufficiently clear that Christ is not “Very God”. His power and authority are derived, not innate: “As thou hast given him {Christ} power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.” (John 17:2).

* Wrested Scriptures [computer files. 1997 (electronic ed.). Northridge, CA: The Christadelphian.

The Beginning of the life of Jesus Christ

Posted on January 28, 2012. Filed under: Bible Study and Bible Reading, Jesus Christ Jeshua the Messiah Jahushua | Tags: Ancestry of Jesus Christ, Begotten, Birth of Jesus Christ, Elizabeth, Jesus Christ, Mary, Son of God |

First page of Mark, by Sargis Pitsak (14th century): "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God". - An illuminated manuscript painting by Sargis Ptisak

Generations of Jesus Christ. His conception and birth.

Jesus Christ was, in accordance with the prophecies, conceived of the Holy Ghost, born of a virgin. He was both Son of Man and Son of God, thereby being qualified to save His people from their sins.

Jesus was not begotten of natural generation.

“Mary, of whom was born Jesus.” A feminine form for the word “born” being used, indicates that Jesus was born of Mary, not of man.

Fragments from The Amplified Bible 1987 Frances Siewert Translation

Luke 1:1 SINCE [as is well known] many have undertaken to put in order and draw up a [thorough] narrative of the surely established deeds which have been accomplished and fulfilled in and among us,
Luke 1:2 Exactly as they were handed down to us by those who from the [official] beginning [of Jesus' ministry] were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word [that is, of the doctrine concerning the attainment through Christ of salvation in the kingdom of God],
Luke 1:3 It seemed good and desirable to me, [and so I have determined] also after having searched out diligently and followed all things closely and traced accurately the course from the highest to the minutest detail from the very first, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, [Acts 1:1.]
Luke 1:4 [My purpose is] that you may know the full truth and understand with certainty and security against error the accounts (histories) and doctrines of the faith of which you have been informed and in which you have been orally instructed.

Matt 1:1 THE BOOK of the ancestry (genealogy) of Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the son (descendant) of David, the son (descendant) of Abraham. [Ps. 132:11; Isa. 11:1.]

Mark 1:1 THE BEGINNING [of the facts] of the good news (the Gospel) of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Mark 1:2 Just as it is written in the prophet Isaiah: Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who will make ready Your way–[Mal. 3:1.]

Annunciation - 1545-1546 Domenico Beccafumi - 10.000 Meisterwerke der Malerei

Luke 1:26 Now in the sixth month [after that], the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee named Nazareth,
Luke 1:27 To a girl never having been married and a virgin engaged to be married to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, Hail, O favored one [endued with grace]! The Lord is with you! Blessed (favored of God) are you before all other women!
Luke 1:29 But when she saw him, she was greatly troubled and disturbed and confused at what he said and kept revolving in her mind what such a greeting might mean.
Luke 1:30 And the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found grace (free, spontaneous, absolute favor and loving-kindness) with God.
Luke 1:31 And listen! You will become pregnant and will give birth to a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus.
Luke 1:32 He will be great (eminent) and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of His forefather David
Luke 1:33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob throughout the ages; and of His reign there will be no end. [Isa. 9:6, 7; Dan. 2:44.]

Luke 1:34 And Mary said to the angel, How can this be, since I have no [intimacy with any man as a] husband?
Luke 1:35 Then the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you [like a shining cloud]; and so the holy (pure, sinless) Thing (Offspring) which shall be born of you will be called the Son of God. [Exod. 40:34; Isa. 7:14.]
Luke 1:36 And listen! Your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is now the sixth month with her who was called barren.
Luke 1:37 For with God nothing is ever impossible and no word from God shall be without power or impossible of fulfillment.

Luke 1:38 Then Mary said, Behold, I am the handmaiden of the Lord; let it be done to me according to what you have said. And the angel left her.
Luke 1:39 And at that time Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country to a town of Judah,
Luke 1:40 And she went to the house of Zachariah and, entering it, saluted Elizabeth.

Luke 1:41 And it occurred that when Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with and controlled by the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:42 And she cried out with a loud cry, and then exclaimed, Blessed (favored of God) above all other women are you! And blessed (favored of God) is the Fruit of your womb!
Luke 1:43 And how [have I deserved that this honor should] be granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:44 For behold, the instant the sound of your salutation reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
Luke 1:45 And blessed (happy, to be envied) is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of the things that were spoken to her from the Lord.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul magnifies and extols the Lord,
Luke 1:47 And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
Luke 1:48 For He has looked upon the low station and humiliation of His handmaiden. For behold, from now on all generations [of all ages] will call me blessed and declare me happy and to be envied!
Luke 1:49 For He Who is almighty has done great things for me–and holy is His name [to be venerated in His purity, majesty and glory]!
Luke 1:50 And His mercy (His compassion and kindness toward the miserable and afflicted) is on those who fear Him with godly reverence, from generation to generation and age to age. [Ps. 103:17.]
Luke 1:51 He has shown strength and made might with His arm; He has scattered the proud and haughty in and by the imagination and purpose and designs of their hearts.
Luke 1:52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones and exalted those of low degree.
Luke 1:53 He has filled and satisfied the hungry with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty-handed [without a gift].
Luke 1:54 He has laid hold on His servant Israel [to help him, to espouse his cause], in remembrance of His mercy,
Luke 1:55 Even as He promised to our forefathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever. [Gen. 17:7; 18:18; 22:17; I Sam. 2:1-10; Mic. 7:20.]

Luke 1:56 And Mary remained with her [Elizabeth] for about three months and [then] returned to her [own] home.

Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place under these circumstances: When His mother Mary had been promised in marriage to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be pregnant [through the power] of the Holy Spirit.
Matt 1:19 And her [promised] husband Joseph, being a just and upright man and not willing to expose her publicly and to shame and disgrace her, decided to repudiate and dismiss (divorce) her quietly and secretly.

Matt 1:20 But as he was thinking this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary [as] your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of (from, out of) the Holy Spirit.
Matt 1:21 She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus [the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua, which means Savior], for He will save His people from their sins [that is, prevent them from failing and missing the true end and scope of life, which is God].
Matt 1:22 All this took place that it might be fulfilled which the Lord had spoken through the prophet,
Matt 1:23 Behold, the virgin shall become pregnant and give birth to a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel–which, when translated, means, God with us. [Isa. 7:14.]

Matt 1:24 Then Joseph, being aroused from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him: he took [her to his side as] his wife.
Matt 1:25 But he had no union with her as her husband until she had borne her firstborn Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Luke 2:1 IN THOSE days it occurred that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that the whole Roman empire should be registered.
Luke 2:2 This was the first enrollment, and it was made when Quirinius was governor of Syria.
Luke 2:3 And all the people were going to be registered, each to his own city or town.
Luke 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee from the town of Nazareth to Judea, to the town of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,
Luke 2:5 To be enrolled with Mary, his espoused (married) wife, who was about to become a mother. [Matt. 1:18-25.]
Luke 2:6 And while they were there, the time came for her delivery,
Luke 2:7 And she gave birth to her Son, her Firstborn; and she wrapped Him in swaddling clothes and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room or place for them in the inn.

John 1:14 And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth. [Isa. 40:5.]

Matt 1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
Matt 1:3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar, Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Aram,
Matt 1:4 Aram the father of Aminadab, Aminadab the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon,
Matt 1:5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse,
Matt 1:6 Jesse the father of King David, King David the father of Solomon, whose mother had been the wife of Uriah, [Ruth 4:18-22; I Chron. 2:13-15.]
Matt 1:7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asa,
Matt 1:8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram [Jehoram], Joram the father of Uzziah,
Matt 1:9 Uzziah the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
Matt 1:10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, Amon the father of Josiah,
Matt 1:11 And Josiah became the father of Jeconiah [also called Coniah and Jehoiachin] and his brothers about the time of the removal (deportation) to Babylon. [II Kings 24:14; I Chron. 3:15, 16.]
Matt 1:12 After the exile to Babylon, Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel [Salathiel], Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
Matt 1:13 Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, Abiud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor,
Matt 1:14 Azor the father of Sadoc, Sadoc the father of Achim, Achim the father of Eliud,
Matt 1:15 Eliud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob,
Matt 1:16 Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, Who is called the Christ. (the Messiah, the Anointed)

Matt 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen, from David to the Babylonian exile (deportation) fourteen generations, from the Babylonian exile to the Christ fourteen generations.

Luke 2:8 And in that vicinity there were shepherds living [out under the open sky] in the field, watching [in shifts] over their flock by night.
Luke 2:9 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by them, and the glory of the Lord flashed and shone all about them, and they were terribly frightened.
Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people.
Luke 2:11 For to you is born this day in the town of David a Savior, Who is Christ (the Messiah) the Lord! [Mic. 5:2.]
Luke 2:12 And this will be a sign for you [by which you will recognize Him]: you will find [after searching] a Baby wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger. [I Sam. 2:34; II Kings 19:29; Isa. 7:14.]
Luke 2:13 Then suddenly there appeared with the angel an army of the troops of heaven (a heavenly knighthood), praising God and saying,

Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest [heaven], and on earth peace among men with whom He is well pleased [men of goodwill, of His favor].

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace. [Isa. 25:1; 40:9-11; Matt. 28:18; Luke 2:11.]
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of His government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from the [latter] time forth, even forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. [Dan. 2:44; I Cor. 15:25-28; Heb. 1:8.]

Early life of Christ in the Bowyer Bible print 6 of 21. adoration of Jesus by the shepherds. Bloemaert

Baby Jesus lying in a manger - In a barn the shepherds gather around the manger and the Virgin lifts up the sheet to give them a clearer view; a large classical column at right suggests a location in a humble outhouse to the main building. An engraving after Abraham Bloemaert. The print was made by Jacob Matham and published by Jacques Razet. 1597 (circa). School: Netherlandish. Inscription Content: Lettered below in the design "Abrahamus Blommaert Inuentor,/Matham sculp" and with the signature of Jacques Razet.

Luke 2:15 When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing (saying) that has come to pass, which the Lord has made known to us.
Luke 2:16 So they went with haste and [by searching] found Mary and Joseph, and the Baby lying in a manger.
Luke 2:17 And when they saw it, they made known what had been told them concerning this Child,
Luke 2:18 And all who heard it were astounded and marveled at what the shepherds told them.

Luke 2:19 But Mary was keeping within herself all these things (sayings), weighing and pondering them in her heart.
Luke 2:20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, just as it had been told them.

John 7:41 Others said, This is the Christ (the Messiah, Anointed One)! But some said, What? Does the Christ come out of Galilee?
John 7:42 Does not the Scripture tell us that the Christ will come from the offspring of David and from Bethlehem, the village where David lived? [Ps. 89:3, 4; Mic. 5:2.]

Matt 1:1 THE BOOK of the ancestry (genealogy) of Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the son (descendant) of David, the son (descendant) of Abraham. [Ps. 132:11; Isa. 11:1.]

Mark 1:1 THE BEGINNING [of the facts] of the good news (the Gospel) of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Mark 1:2 Just as it is written in the prophet Isaiah: Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who will make ready Your way–[Mal. 3:1.]

Luke 1:56 And Mary remained with her [Elizabeth] for about three months and [then] returned to her [own] home.

Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest [heaven], and on earth peace among men with whom He is well pleased [men of goodwill, of His favor].

Jesus begotten Son of God #10 Coming down spirit or flesh seed of Eve (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #11 Existence and Genesis Raising up (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #12 Son of God (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #14 Beloved Preminent Son and Mediator originating in Mary (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #15 Son of God Originating in Mary (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #17 Adam, Eve, Mary and Christianity’s central figure (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
The Seed Of The Woman Bruised (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
In The Stupendous Reality of Being “in Christ Jesus” (pjcockrell.wordpress.com) we can see how we can become in Christ, implying we can become like Christ Jesus, which is not the same as becoming God, because that is something we never can, nor can we ever become like God. But we can work to become like Christ, who is a man and human like us. In Jesus we can become sanctified and made holy. It is because God foresaw in His Plan the sanctification and notated all the names in the Book of Liberty or Book of Judgement (Revelation 17:8) that we can be given grace before the world was created. (2 Timothy 1:9) But it is by Jesus his dead on a wooden stake that we are redeemed and forgiven for all our sins. Because God cannot die there had to come a man to make an end to the spell of the punishment for the sin of the first man and woman. In Christ Jesus we were given the Saviour by the grace of God. As Jesus is an accepted Son of God we too can become children of God. In Christ Jesus we can become a new creation and a son of God when we accept him and follow his teachings, which implement that we have to live according to the Laws of God and honour that Only One God: Elohim Hashem Jehovah.
Mary, The Mother of Jesus – The First Disciple (Student Guide) (notshaken.wordpress.com)
set apart for a mission ─ Luke 1:29-33
In Mary, The Mother of Jesus – The First Disciple (Teacher Guide) (notshaken.wordpress.com) the writer says: “Most if not all of us are very comfortable with granting Mary the essential role of Jesus’ mother, while regarding anything additional as veering towards “Mariolatry.” But all people should be aware that we may not honour any person in such a way. We are only to pray to God, the Most Highest. And surely we may not sit in front of statues or images to pray to that person or image, even not an image of God.
The Annunciation (pastorreeder.wordpress.com)
In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary.
+
The words spoken to Mary by the Lord’s messenger Gabriel were the Lord’s words. This means that what the angel had spoken was what God had spoken. What the angel was saying was what God was saying. This is so because Gabriel did not speak his own word, but the Lord’s Word. Therefore, what Gabriel, as the messenger of the Lord, spoke, would indeed come to pass.
The Joyful Mysteries (trusthismercy.wordpress.com)
12/18/2011 He Will Be Called the Son of God (richbrownforewords.wordpress.com)
First, the obvious question: Why her? Out of all the women in the history of the world, why this one? She’s obviously from the bottom tier of society. She’s very young. She and her betrothed had to travel to another country to have the baby, and afterward they fled through the night to cross yet another international border (illegally?) to escape the long arm of the law. And, of course, there’s the fact that she’s not even married! Put this story in the 21st century and a significant segment of Christianity would hold a condescending, if not bigoted, view of her.

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Jesus begotten Son of God #20 Before and After

Posted on January 26, 2012. Filed under: Jesus Christ Jeshua the Messiah Jahushua | Tags: 2° Adam, Abraham, Adam, Before Abraham, God, God Son, God the Father, Jesus, John, Messiah, Pre-existence, Second Coming, Son of God |

Preceding article: Jesus begotten Son of God #19 Compromising fact

The Anointed begotten Son of God

44. Before

““And now, esteem Me with Yourself, Father, with the esteem which I had with You before the world was.” (John 17:5 The Scriptures 1998+)

Prologue of the gospel of St. John from the Clementine Vulgate, edited by P. Michael Hetzenauer, O.M.Cap. Biblia Sacra, vol. V, Regensburg: Verlag Friedrich Pustet, 1922, p. 197.

In John 17:5 Jesus spoke of the glory which he “had” before the foundation of the world. But in the same context (vv. 22 and 24) that same glory has already “been given” (past tense) to disciples not yet born at the time when Jesus spoke.

“And the esteem which You gave Me I have given them, so that they might be one as We are one, “ (John 17:22 The Scriptures 1998+)

““Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, might be with Me where I am, so that they see My esteem which You have given Me, because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.” (John 17:24 The Scriptures 1998+)

It is clear then that the glory which both Jesus and the disciples “had” is a glory in promise and prospect. Jesus thus prays to have conferred on him at his ascension the glory which God had undertaken to give him from the foundation of the world. John speaks in Jewish fashion of a pre-existing Purpose, not a pre-existing second Person. Our point was well expressed by a distinguished Lutheran New Testament professor, H.H. Wendt (The System of Christian Teaching, 1907):

“It is clear that John 8:58 [‘Before Abraham was I am’] and 17:5 do not speak of a real pre-existence of Christ. We must not treat these verses in isolation, but understand them in their context.

“The saying in John 8:58, ‘Before Abraham came to be, I am’ was prompted by the fact that Jesus’ opponents had countered his remark in v. 51 by saying that Jesus was not greater than Abraham or the prophets (v. 52). As the Messiah commissioned by God Jesus is conscious of being in fact superior to Abraham and the prophets. For this reason he replies (according to the intervening words, v. 54ff) that Abraham had ‘seen his day,’ i.e., the entrance of Jesus on his historical ministry, and ‘had rejoiced to see’ that day. And Jesus strengthens his argument by adding the statement, which sounded strange to the Jews, that he had even been ‘before Abraham’ (v. 58). This last saying must be understood in connection with v. 56. Jesus speaks in vv. 55, 56 and 58 as if his present ministry on earth stretches back to the time of Abraham and even before. His sayings were perceived by the Jews in this sense and rejected as nonsense. But Jesus obviously did not (in v. 56) mean that Abraham had actually experienced Jesus’ appearance on earth and seen it literally. Jesus was referring to Abraham’s spiritual vision of his appearance on earth, by which Abraham, at the birth of Isaac, had foreseen at the same time the promised Messiah, and had rejoiced at the future prospect of the greater one (the Messiah) who would be Israel’s descendant. Jesus’ reference to his existence before Abraham’s birth must be understood in the same sense. There is no sudden heavenly pre-existence of the Messiah here: the reference is again obviously to his earthly existence. And this earthly existence is precisely the existence of the Messiah. As such, it was not only present in Abraham’s mind, but even before his time, as the subject of God’s foreordination and foresight. The sort of pre-existence Jesus has in mind is ‘ideal’ [in the world of ideas and plans]. In accordance with this consciousness of being the Messiah preordained from the beginning, Jesus can indeed make the claim to be greater than Abraham and the prophets.

“In John 17:5 Jesus asks the Father to give him now the heavenly glory which he had with the Father before the world was. The conclusion that because Jesus possessed a pre-existent glory in heaven he must also have pre-existed personally in heaven is taken too hastily. This is proven by Matthew 6:20 (‘Lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven’), 25:34 (‘Come, you blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’), Col. 1:5 (‘the hope which is laid up for you in heaven about which you heard in the word of Truth, the Gospel’), and 1 Peter 1:4 (‘an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, which does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you’). Thus a reward can also be thought of as preexistent in heaven. Such a reward is destined for human beings and already held in store, to be awarded to them at the end of their life. So it is with heavenly glory which Jesus requests. He is not asking for a return to an earlier heavenly condition. Rather he asks God to give him now, at the end of his work as Messiah on earth (v. 4), the heavenly reward which God had appointed from eternity for him, as Messiah. As the Messiah and Son he knows he has been loved and foreordained by the Father from eternity (v. 24). Both John 8:58 and 17:5 are concerned with God’s predetermination of the Messiah” (cp. Teaching of Jesus, pp. 453-460).

Note: Things which are held in store as divine plans for the future are said to be “with God.” Thus in Job 10:13 Job says to God, “These things you have concealed in your heart: I know that this is with You” (see KJV). “He performs what is appointed for me, and many such decrees are with Him” (Job 23:14). Thus the glory which Jesus had “with God” was the glory which God had planned for him as the decreed reward for his Messianic work now completed. The promise of glory “pre-existed,” not Jesus himself. Note that this same glory which Jesus asked for has already been given to you (see John 17:22, 24). It was given to you and Jesus whom God loved before the foundation of the world (v. 24; cp. Eph. 1:4). You may therefore say that you now “have” that glory although it is glory in promise and prospect, to be gained at the Second Coming. Jesus had that same glory in prospect before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). [39. Anthony Buzzard, editor of Focus on the Kingdom in” Jesus' Long-Form Birth Certificate Released by Luke and Matthew (and John), 2000 years ago, and Recorded in Scripture” (June 2011)]

45. After

Paul can say that we now “have” a new body with God in heaven (2 Cor. 5:1) — i.e., we have the promise of it, not in actuality. That body will be ours at our resurrection at the return of Christ. We now “have” it in anticipation and promise only. (“We have a building of God…” 2 Cor. 5:1). We do not in fact have it yet. This is the very Jewish language of promises decreed by God. They are absolutely certain to be fulfilled.

“For we know that if the tent of our earthly house, is destroyed, we have a building from Elohim, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 5:1 The Scriptures 1998+)

We do not have our foundation in the dust, but we do come out from the dust and soil and shall return to the soil. As the first man was made from the dust of the earth. He came from the earth. The second man came from heaven because he was placed in the mother’s womb by the divine power of the One and Only God. In the man who wanted to die for all other men we have the treasure of the Good News.

“But Elohim gives it a body as He wishes, and to each seed a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds. And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the esteem of the heavenly is truly one, and the esteem of the earthly is another, one esteem of the sun, and another esteem of the moon, and another esteem of the stars – for star differs from star in esteem. So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in disrespect, it is raised in esteem; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it has been written, “The first man Ad’am became a living being,” the last Ad’am a life-giving Spirit. The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Master from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.” (1 Corinthians 15:38-48 The Scriptures 1998+)

Adcension of Christ Jesus, the son of God - A page from the Gospel Lectionary portion of the Bamberg Apocalypse (Bamberg, Staatsbibliothek, MS A. II. 42)

“For Elohim, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts for the enlightening of the knowledge of the esteem of Elohim in the face of יהושע Messiah. And we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power might be of Elohim, and not of us – being hard pressed on every side,1 but not crushed; being perplexed, but not in despair; Footnote: 1See 1:8. being persecuted, but not forsaken; being thrown down, but not destroyed; always bearing about in the body the dying of the Master יהושע, that the life of יהושע might also be manifested in our body. For we, the living, are always delivered to death for the sake of יהושע, that the life of יהושע might also be manifested in our mortal flesh, so that death indeed is working in us, but the life in you. But having the same spirit of belief, according to what has been written, “I believed, therefore I spoke,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, knowing that He who raised up the Master יהושע shall also raise us up through יהושע, and shall present us with you. For all this is for your sake, so that favour, having spread through the many, would cause thanksgiving to overflow, unto the esteem of Elohim.” (2 Corinthians 4:6-15 The Scriptures 1998+)

°°°

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Please do also find Related articles:

Secret or public return of Jesus
Preexistence in the Divine purpose and Trinity
Pre-existence
Pre-existence of Christ
The Nature of Preexistence in the New Testament
Some issues relating to the pre-existence of Christ
Around pre-existence of Christ
Pre-existence of Christ #1 Intro #1 Athanasian Creed
Da Vinci Code: Was Jesus Human or Divine?
The Countdown to Jesus his return has begun. But Are you ready?
The return of Christ to the earth – soon!: PDF Christ is Coming
Bible Teaching About His Return
New Testament Teaching
Other New Testament Writings
Old Testament Teaching
The Kingdom of God
Behold Your King!
Dual Fulfillment
The Times and Seasons
Antichrist
Tribulation
The Nation of Sign
The “Rapture”
The Lord will Come!
Take Heed to Yourselves
It was once fashionable in religious circles to say that Jesus Christ would never return to the earth. There are still plenty of professing Christians who believe that. But there are now many others who have come to believe that the Second Coming is a very important event.
Christadelphians have always taught that the Return of Jesus Christ to the earth is vital to the fulfillment of the purpose of God. This booklet reviews Bible teaching about the Second Coming, both the events that will lead up to that miracle and the reason for the Lord’s Return.
Is the Trinity or pre-existence true? > How is Jesus Christ God?
Jesus, who came into existence as a man, is the firstborn of God’s new creation as Adam was the firstborn of the old creation. (1Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive…. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made (by resurrection from the dead) a quickening spirit.”; Romans 5:19 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”)
Christ’s genealogy through Mary in Luke is taken right back to Adam. (Luke 3:38: “Which was (the son) of Enos, which was (the son) of Seth, which was (the son) of Adam, which was (the son) of God.”) If Christ was to be the offspring of Abraham he had to come into being after Abraham. Abraham knew there was a saviour promised in Genesis 3:15.
Conclusion in who is Jesus Christ?Jesus did not physically exist before he was born of Mary.
1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained (Greek proginoskw foreknown) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
It is the same word as that used of all who will be sons (and daughters) of God.Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow (Greek proginoskw foreknow), he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The same word is used in Acts 26:5 (knew); Romans 11:2 (foreknew);2Peter 3:17 (know these things before).

His pre-existence being only in the sense that he existed in the plan and purpose of God before the creation of the world.
Certainty in a troubled world
Looking forward to the return of Jesus
Why did Christ not reveal the exact time of his second coming?
Summary on trinity
Rapture exposed

If you want to come to grips with what the Bible really teaches, why not take the free Bible study course on www.thisisyourbible.com? You may take this course either online or by regular mail.

This course will give you a background in the major themes of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. As with everything we offer, there is no cost to you other than your time and effort. You will also have a personal tutor to whom you may pose questions either from the course itself or those questions which come to you as you read the Bible.

To sign up for the course, go to www.thisisyourbible.com and click on the “Students” tab on the left of the screen. Then scroll down and click on the blue bar which says “Sign up as a student today!” Fill in the registration form and submit it. If you sign up for the free online Bible course, you will be able to start immediately.

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Jesus begotten Son of God #6 Anointed Son of God, Adam and Abraham (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #7 A matter of the Future (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #9 Two millennia ago conceived or begotten (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #11 Existence and Genesis Raising up (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #13 Pre-existence excluding virginal birth of the Only One Transposed (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #14 Beloved Preminent Son and Mediator originating in Mary (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #15 Son of God Originating in Mary (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #16 Prophet to be heard (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #12 Son of God (christadelphians.wordpress.com)

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Jesus begotten Son of God #19 Compromising fact

Posted on January 23, 2012. Filed under: Jehovah יהוה YHWH JHVH God Elohim Yahweh Jahweh, Jesus Christ Jeshua the Messiah Jahushua, Religion | Tags: Ascending, Elohim, God, God Son, God the Father, Holy Spirit, Jesus, John, Monotheism, Returning to God, Son God, Son of God, Tetragrammaton, Trinity |

Forgoing article: #18 Believing in inhuman or human person

The Anointed begotten Son of God

43. A compromising fact

The Holy Trinity is more usually depicted with God the Father as an elder, God the Son as Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit as a divine Dove, as in Fridolin Leiber’s other work + The persons of the trinity are identified by symbols on their chests: The Son has a lamb (agnus dei), the Father an Eye of Providence, and the Spirit a dove.

Christian tradition from the second century embarked on an amazing embellishment of the biblical story which obscured Jesus’ Messianic Sonship and humanity. Once the Son was given a pre-history as coequal and coessential with his Father, the unity of God was threatened and monotheism was compromised, though every effort was made to conceal this with the protest that God was still one, albeit no longer one Person, the Father, but one “Essence,” comprising more than one Person. But this was a dangerous shift into Greek philosophical categories alien to the New Testament’s Hebrew theologyand creeds (cp. John 17:3; 5:44; Mark 12:28ff).

““And this is everlasting life, that they should know You, the only true Elohim, and יהושע Messiah whom You have sent.” (John 17:3 The Scriptures 1998+)

““How are you able to believe, when you are receiving esteem from one another, and the esteem that is from the only Elohim you do not seek?” (John 5:44 The Scriptures 1998+)

“And one of the scribes coming near, hearing them reasoning together, knowing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first command of all?” And יהושע answered him, “The first of all the commands is, ‘Hear, O Yisra’ĕl, יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one. ‘And you shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first command. “And the second, like it, is this, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no other command greater than these.” And the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one Elohim, and there is no other besides Him.” (Mark 12:28-32 The Scriptures 1998+)

Several other “adjustments” became necessary under the revised doctrine of God. John was made to say in certain other verses what he did not say. This trend is well illustrated by the New International Version in John 13:3, 16:28 and 20:17.

“Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;” (John 13:3 NIV)

File:Giotto - Scrovegni - -38- - Ascension.jpg

Ascension of Christ – Giotto di Bondone (1267-1337), Cappella Scrovegni a Padova

“I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”” (John 16:28 NIV)

“Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”” (John 20:17 NIV)

In none of these passages does the original say that Jesus was going back to God. In the first two Jesus spoke of his intention to “go to the Father” and in the last of his “ascending” to his Father. The NIV embellishes the story by telling us that Jesus was going back or returning to God. A Son whose existence is traced to his mother’s womb cannot go back to the Father, since he has never before been with the Father. Jesus also does not go to a place where he was before as God, to be God again, but he goes “to” his Father to be “with” his Father.

“יהושע, knowing that the Father had given all into His hands, and that He had come from Elohim and was going to Elohim,” (John 13:3 The Scriptures 1998+)

““I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.” “ (John 16:28 The Scriptures 1998+)

“יהושע said to her, “Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My Elohim and your Elohim.’ ” (John 20:17 The Scriptures 1998+)

Preceding article: Jesus begotten Son of God #18 Believing in inhuman or human person

To be continued: Before and After (Parts 44 + 45)

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Have You Seen the Face of God? (lbbfchurch.wordpress.com)
Ever since His ascension into heaven, after His resurrection, Jesus has been exalted in glory. He has received even a greater glory because of His obedience to the Father’s will. As recorded in John 17, Jesus prayer to the Father was that He might again enter into this visible glory of heaven.
Jesus begotten Son of God #12 Son of God (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #18 Believing in inhuman or human person (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Firstfruits and the Final Harvest (eudoranachand.wordpress.com)
In the Tanakh, a cloud often expresses God’s glory. Daniel prophesied that he saw in a night vision (a dream) the second coming of Jesus, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven. He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
A Former Pastor Warns: Leave the Church! Part 4 (endtimeebooklibrary.com)
Two books, “The Fake Jesus” and “The New Idolatry” detail historical proof that God was not the founder of the organized church. Yet for many centuries, His longsuffering and mercy endured. Both books historically connect the dots.
The book “Come Out of her, God’s People,” provides a detailed account of his memoirs as a pastor and an evangelist in a well-known African-American Denomination.
The Orthodox Definition of the Trinity (compasschurchamman.wordpress.com)
Simply stated: “The Trinity is three persons (personae) in one substance (substantia).”
“We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.” – The Athanasian Creed
What is a Modalist? (zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com)
There really are three (and they don’t just seem to be three or appear from time to time in different manifestations as suits the moment) who really are one. It’s a mystery that can’t be grasped by finite minds but the ability to grasp truth isn’t the final arbiter of reality.
Salvation in Islam (part 2 of 3): Worship and Obey God (aroonadorough.wordpress.com)
Tawheed is an Arabic word that means oneness, and when we talk about tawheed in relation to God it means realising and affirming God’s oneness. It is the belief that God is One, without partner or associate. There is no god worthy of worship but Allah, and this is the foundation of Islam. To profess such a belief along with the belief that Muhammad is His messenger is what makes a person Muslim.
Monotheism – One God (aroonadorough.wordpress.com)
The religion of Islam is based on one core belief, that there is no god worthy of worship but Allah. When a person embraces Islam or a Muslim wants to renew or confirm his or her faith, they profess their belief that there is no god worthy of worship but Allah and that Muhammad is His final messenger. Ashadu an la ill laha il Allah wa Ashadu anna Muhammadan Rasulullah, Saying these words, the Testimony of Faith, is the first of five pillars or foundations of the religion of Islam. Belief in God is the first of six pillars of faith.
Names of God in Judaism: EMET excerpt selected by אלוה אל (powersthatbeat.wordpress.com)
The most important name of God in Judaism is the Tetragrammaton, the four-letter name of God. This name is first mentioned in the book of Genesis and is usually translated as ’the Lord’. Because Jews have for a longperiod of time considered it blasphemy to pronounce, the correct pronunciation of this name has been forgotten—the original Hebrew texts only included consonants.

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SOPA & PIPA More good things thrown away than bad things

Posted on January 19, 2012. Filed under: Announcement | Tags: Christadelphian, Copyright, Copyright infringement, criminal act, Facebook, Intellectual property, MSN, PIPA, Protect IP Act, Social network, United States, Wikipedia, Wordpress |

In certain countries our websites are not allowed to be shown on the internet. We can find many of our articles being blocked.

Being Christian and on plus non-trinitarian we are considered to be dangerous and fulfilling a criminal act also by trying to convert Muslims. When we publicised on MSN in the Groups we often had to take away articles and more than once certain people we helped to escape from Iran, Iak, Afghanistan and Turkey asked us to take away their name from the site and to remove the articles of the success of our actions, because of repercussions to family members.

Because we are also active in helping people to flee violence and torturing, and spreading the Good News in different areas in the world, we are also sometimes considered working in illegality. Therefore we are by some governements blacklisted and accused of being part of ‘terror groups’. Though we can assure you we only want to preach Good News and peace and are totally against any form of violence.

For our publications we pay perhaps not so much for copyrights (last year 280.99€ for the extra copyrights), because we also try to use copyright free material (older photographs and illustrations) and limited allowed quotes. Though we are voluntary working and have to face much higher costs to be able to put our writings on the net and to get them publicised. For bigger companies they shall have to face a much higher bill.

We agree, and do have no objection that we and other people do have to pay copyrights to the rightful owners. But there are limitations in how far you can go. For example in case we use music in a place where more people are present we should pay the copyright office. So for our meetings where we use only Christadelphian music, we honestly agree that we do not pay extra, and do not fulfil all the paperwork for the Copyright registration office, because our Christadelphian brothers never receive any penny for it.

In Belgium you get such absurdities that when you go to the dentist he has not his radio on, because then he has to pay extra fees to the Copyright office, but he switches his computer on and let the music stream that way. (Using a loophole in the law.) (Plus we already do pay copyrights for listening with our subscription with the server, radio and television providers. Why to pay once more?)

For the articles on the internet we provide the readers also with quotes from other related articles on other, even non- Christadelphian and trinitarian sites. In case we should have to pay extra for it we would abandon such a service. But that way people become limited to know more and to look further or to compare other opinions. We think it is important for the matter of freedom that people should be able to get as much information as possible about a certain subject. Providing free information, either by taking care of presenting free visible articles on several research sites or free encyclopaedic works, like Wikipedia, are important to give as much people as possible the opportunity to broaden their mind and to form their own opinion.

Three years ago the Belgian government wanted already to limit publication on Social Networks, because the Muslim groups had found a means to get people together for their protest marches. Also the Occupy Movement and Indignados caused a problem that way, and therefore the government is looking for ways to restrict such gatherings by be able in the future to cut down certain websites and social networks.

Also in the United States of America they have noted the danger social networks can do for certain governments when people can get mobilized by such electronic networks. They are also aware that in case in an other country an uproar happens their own people could get to know about it and ask them to react, while other while they would prefer not to interfere and not to spend any money to actions.

The “Protect IP Act (Preventing Real Online Threats to Economic Creativity and Theft of Intellectual Property Act of 2011 or PIPA), also known as Senate Bill 968 or S. 968, is now be put forward as a proposed law with the stated goal of giving the US government and copyright holders additional tools to curb access to “rogue websites dedicated to infringing or counterfeit goods”, especially those registered outside the U.S.. { The legislation should not be confused with HR 2391, or the Intellectual Property Protection Act of 2004, which was an earlier collection of intellectual property related legislation. Although the 2006 legislation does involve a very similar representation of the 2004 legislation, it is more of an expansion and addition rather than a refurbished copy.}

We are totally aware of the difficulty of fighting against malicious groups, and that there is a relationship between terrorist organizations and intellectual property infringement and infringement of IP. We also know that , especially pirated CDs and DVDs and other counterfeit goods, have become the main source of terrorist organization funding, but to put all the publications on the net on chains is a step to far.

People should consider the danger of such a text as “”making available” for civil violation, regardless of whether there is any distribution or copying, let alone infringement. ” in the new law, where you can wonder when we can speak of a “civil violation”? For many countries we as a religious group are bringing their population in danger, because we could be able to convert them to a dreadful belief. We are considered as dreadful liars so therefor we should be blacked out.

A good thing would be H.R. 5136 The Preservation of Orphan Works Act which would allow libraries to create copies of certain copyrighted works that, in their last twenty years of copyright term, are no longer commercially exploited, and are not available at a reasonable price. Introduced Sept. 23, 2004.But at such an instance we would find it better that as in Belgium the photocopy copyrights would still be taken into account.

On the other hand what about occasional or not intentional copies of an art work or monument, like by private family pictures in front of a painting, statue or monument. When they would have to pay for the copyrights using the painting, statue or monument in their picture this would be ridiculous. It would be even more ridiculous if the server company who allowed to have the photo or film be placed on the net would also be taken accountable for the publication and infringement of copyright laws. can yo imagine which fines and problems Facebook is going to encounter?

Also for schools and institutions the “Piracy Deterrence in Education” is too vague, and could include material stored on computers and shared on networks, bringing those institutions in big problems.

The last decennia we could find in the internet a blessing to be able to communicate more easily with each other and to share opinions. This open free space is under threat.

We should be careful that we are not choosing for a money making ‘so called’ “Democracy” that is in favor of intrest and maximum gain profit, without counting the human factor. The freedom of Free speech is important for everybody. Even when we have to face that certain things we do not agree with are written so that everybody can read them. We should give everybody also the freedom to choose what they want to read and how they want to interpret it. Though we do agree there are certain limitations like pornographic material and extreme violence which should be filtered down.

The Christadelphians are non-political, and normally we would not interfere with political matters as such, though we greatly react to injustice, violation of human rights, and any form of violence against humankind.

We also are for the freedom of mind and the freedom of intellectual exchange.

We are pleased WordPress, Wikipedia and Zemanta with several servercompanies provide us with tools to bring our ideas across many borders. Limited in our own resources, being dependant on free gifts, as non-paid preachers we are thankful for the provisions certain companies make to give us the opportunity to publish our ideas.

With the proposed bill we can see that a lot of freedom of speech can be dangered, and therefore want to express our opinion and stand up with many protesters against the new proposal.

Yesterday you could perhaps find our site also blacked out in your country and until the 24th of November you shall be able to see a black banner at the right-hand corner of the screen. We may not forget that in case the United States of America gets this bill accepted by parliament, many other countries would follow and by doing so will close all the good things about the internet as well.

We would propose that they at first would concentrate more on all the spammers and fishing companies and got those before court. In case they are able to find the right IP addresses and servers for the other things why not for those malicious companies? Why do they tackle them first?

Joe Biden filled in for Hillary Clinton at the London Conference on Cyberspace (LCC) on November 1st, giving a speech on the importance of freedom in cyberspace and talking up the importance of freedom on the internet and not regulating the internet. Meanwhile, the Obama Administration stands with congress in full support of H.R 3261, the Stop Online Piracy Act, which would give copyright holders the ability to censor websites on the net. We need to stand up now and let Congress know that they shouldn’t mess with the Internet!

Biden on Internet Freedom = Anti-SOPA from Fight for the Future on Vimeo.

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Jesus begotten Son of God #18 Believing in inhuman or human person

Posted on January 16, 2012. Filed under: Jesus Christ Jeshua the Messiah Jahushua | Tags: Begotten, Believe, Divinity, Human, Inhuman, Pre-existence |

The Anointed begotten Son of God

41. What to believe

Do we really believe the words of the Bible or has our tradition made it difficult to hear the text of Scripture without the interfering voices of later tradition? There is the constant danger for us believers that the words of the Bible can be drowned out by the clamorous and sometimes threatening words of ecclesiastical teaching, which mostly goes unexamined. At stake here is the whole nature of the Saviour. Is he really a human being, or did he have the benefit of billions of years of conscious existence before deciding to become a man? Is this latter picture anything more than a legendary addition to Apostolic faith?

Titlepage of the New Testament section of a German Luther Bible, printed in 1769.

The Son of God, Messiah and Saviour, is defined in precise theological terms by Gabriel, laying the foundation of the whole New Testament and fulfilling the promises of the Old.

Christians should unite around that clear portrait of Jesus presented by Gabriel. Jesus is the Son of God on one basis only, his miraculous coming into existence in Mary’s womb. This was God’s creative act, initiating His new creation and providing the model of Christian Sonship for us all. Though obviously we are not, like Jesus, brought into existence supernaturally, nevertheless we, like him, are to receive a supernatural birth from spirit by being born again under the influence of the Gospel (Galatians 3:2; Ephesians 1:13, 14; Romans 10:17; Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:11, 12; 1 Peter 1:23-25; James 1:18).

The “divine” nature of Jesus has no other foundation than the stupendous miracle granted to Mary and to humanity. A Jesus who claims to be Son of God for any other reason should be rejected. A natural son of Joseph cannot qualify as the Messiah, nor can a person whose existence did not originate in his mother’s womb by a divine creative miracle.

42. Inhuman

From chapter 31 and 32 we could see that we do not have an incarnation from God into a human body, called Jesus, in the human Mary. And that coming out of the womb, coming into birth we got a human body which grew up, by eating and drinking, to come to an end by being put on the tree or on a piece of wood, afterwards he was liberated from that death by his Father.

“The God of our fathers has raised up Jesus, whom you slew, hanging him on a tree:” (Acts 5:30 LO) “But God raised him up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that he should be held by it.” (Acts 2:24 Noyes)

It was a man, born out of a woman, who really could feel pain and horror and died in agony. He was put in the grave or sepulchre and in a miraculous way taken out of it. Nobody can kill God but Jesus was killed and descended into the earth or ‘hell’, which is the grave . [38. Sjeool, Sheol, Hades, Hell = sepulchre or Grave. “he foreseeing [this] spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.” (Acts 2:31 ASV)
“he was speaking in advance about the resurrection of the Messiah, that it was he who was not abandoned in sh’ol and whose flesh did not see decay.” (Acts 2:31 CJB)
“he seeing this before, spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption.” (Acts 2:31 Webster)]

“But when the completion of the time came, Elohim sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under Torah,” (Galatians 4:4 The Scriptures 1998+)
““For as Yonah was three days and three nights in the stomach of the great fish, so shall the Son of Ad’am be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Matthew 12:40 The Scriptures 1998+)

“Then He warned His taught ones that they should say to no one that He is יהושע the Messiah. From that time יהושע began to show to His taught ones that it was necessary for Him to go to Yerushalayim, and to suffer much from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and to be raised again the third day.” (Matthew 16:20-21 The Scriptures 1998+)

“And when the captain and those with him, who were guarding יהושע, saw the earthquake and all that took place, they feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of Elohim!” And many women who followed יהושע from Galil, attending Him, were there, watching from a distance, among whom were Miryam from Maḡdala, and Miryam the mother of Yaʽaqob’ and Yosĕph, and the mother of Zab’dai’s sons. And when evening came, there came a rich man from Ramathayim, named Yosĕph, who himself had also become a taught one of יהושע. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of יהושע. Then Pilate commanded the body to be given. And having taken the body, Yosĕph wrapped it in clean linen, and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock. And he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and went away. And Miryam from Maḡdala was there, and the other Miryam, sitting opposite the tomb. On the next day, which was after the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Master, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I am raised.’ “Command, then, that the tomb be safeguarded until the third day, lest His taught ones come by night and steal Him away, and should say to the people, ‘He was raised from the dead.’ And the last deception shall be worse than the first.” So Pilate said to them, “You have a watch, go, safeguard it as you know how.” And they went and safeguarded the tomb, sealing the stone and setting the watch.” (Matthew 27:54-66 The Scriptures 1998+)

“He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:31 AVRLE)
“foreseeing this he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Messiah, that His being was neither left in the grave, nor did His flesh see corruption. (Acts 2:31 The Scriptures 1998+)
“And the messenger responding, said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek יהושע who was impaled. “He is not here, for He was raised, as He said. Come, see the place where the Master lay.” (Matthew 28:5-6 The Scriptures 1998+)

You could call it inhuman that Jesus his flesh did not see corruption, but that happened by the force of God again. As he was given life by God the first time and it was taken out by humans, God gave him life again as an example what can happen to us as well. All humans shall be able to become resurrected in the hope of their fellow brother or fellow human Christ Jesus.

The constitution of Jesus as the unique Son of God is given its basis by the superb words of Gabriel in Luke 1:35. This definition of the Messiah, Son of God, should be allowed to stand.

It was later, post-biblical tradition which interfered with the definitive, revealing statement of Gabriel. Once Jesus was turned into a pre-existing Son of God who gave up one conscious existence for another, Christology immediately became problematic (as witnessed by the centuries of disputes, excommunications, and fierce dogmatic decisions of Church Councils). A Son of God who is already Son of God before his conception in his mother is a personage essentially non-human. Under that revised scheme what came into existence in Mary was not the Son of God at all, but a created human nature added to an already existing Person. But Gabriel describes the creation of the Son of God himself, not the creation of a human nature added to an already existing Son. The two models are quite different.
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Preceding article: Jesus begotten Son of God #17 Adam, Eve, Mary and Christianity’s central figure

To be continued: 43. A compromising fact

Who is Jesus Christ? #1 What does the Bible say the only man who is called “the Last Adam” , the only man who was ever born of a virgin

Preexistence in the Divine purpose and Trinity

Around pre-existence of Christ

Pre-existence of Christ #1 Intro #1 Athanasian Creed

Jesus as fully human

Christ begotten through the power of the Holy Spirit

Da Vinci Code: Was Jesus Human or Divine?

Jesus son of God Six simple words. However, they are much more than simple words

Christian thought: acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God

“Son of God” – “God the Son”

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Jesus begotten Son of God #4 Promised Prophet and Saviour (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #8 Found Divinely Created not Incarnated (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #10 Coming down spirit or flesh seed of Eve (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #11 Existence and Genesis Raising up (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #12 Son of God (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #13 Pre-existence excluding virginal birth of the Only One Transposed (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #14 Beloved Preminent Son and Mediator originating in Mary (christadelphians.wordpress.com)

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Jesus begotten Son of God #17 Adam, Eve, Mary and Christianity’s central figure

Posted on January 14, 2012. Filed under: Jesus Christ Jeshua the Messiah Jahushua | Tags: 2° Adam, Adam, Begotten, God Son, Incarnation, Jesus, Mary, New Testament, Pre-existence, Son of God, Sonship |

Jesus begotten son of God

39. Adam and Eve, Mary and Jesus

As the ‘mannin’ Eve, who was created after the image of God, became the first mother of the 1st worldgeneration, Mary was chosen to be the mother of the 2nd Adam, who was going to be the 1st of the New Generation (The third in a row). [35. The 2nd one having started after the flood.] This new child, or the child of the new beginning (Genesis) had to come directly from God to be likewise the 1st Adam and because it would have been unfair to start off from a person who would only come from fragile humans who , because of the heridarity of defects, should have to many problems to choose not to sin. The new world had to be able to start without a bug, so giving humanity more chances to succeed the Creator took again a woman, who at first [36. Eve in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3)] had showed a deceit, giving her again the chance to bring up good children.

The birth of Christ Jesus - La Nativité - 1490 Lorenzo Costa (1460–1535) Museum of Fine Arts of Lyon

The prophet promised by Isaiah and the long expected by others was Jesus with his royal Sonship that is established by his miraculous begetting. That of the Christians originates with their rebirth or regeneration.

40. Identity and nature of Christianity’s central figure

As the centre of a new ecumenism the simple truth about the identity and nature of Christianity’s central figure has the backing of those many scholars who know well that neither Luke nor Matthew show any sign of believing in a pre-human eternal Son of God of the post-biblical creeds. Raymond Brown’s magisterial treatment of the birth narratives in his Birth of the Messiah makes a major point of the fact that neither Matthew nor Luke believed in the Incarnation of a pre-human, prehistoric Son.

Commenting on Luke 1:35, “therefore,” Raymond Brown says, “of the nine times dio kai occurs in the New Testament, three are in Luke/Acts. It involves a certain causality and Lyonnet (in his L’Annonciation, 61.6) points out that this has embarrassed many orthodox theologians since in pre-existence Christology a conception by the holy spirit in Mary’s womb does not bring about the existence of God’s son. Luke is seemingly unaware of such a Christology; conception is causally related to divine Sonship for him…And so I cannot follow those theologians who try to avoid the causal connotation in the ‘therefore’ which begins this line, by arguing that for Luke the conception of the child does not bring the Son of God into being.” Raymond Brown insists that according to Luke, “We are dealing with the begetting of God’s Son in the womb of Mary through God’s creative spirit.” [37. The Birth of the Messiah, London: Geoffrey Chapman, 1977, pp. 291, 312.]

“Orthodoxy” derived from later Church Councils has to turn a blind eye to Gabriel’s definition of the Son of God. It contradicted Gabriel by denying that the conception of Jesus brought about his existence as Son of God.

This is a very serious issue. Is the Jesus of the creeds, the Jesus under whose umbrella churches gather, really the created Son authorized by Scripture in Luke 1:35 and Matthew 1:18, 20?

Again, the exhaustive work of Brown on the birth narratives brings us the important fact that the Jesus of the Gospels is quite unlike the “eternally begotten” Son of the later creeds:
“Matthew and Luke press [the question of Jesus’ identity] back to Jesus’ conception. In the commentary I shall stress that Matthew and Luke show no knowledge of pre-existence; seemingly for them the conception was the becoming (begetting) of God’s Son (p. 31).”

“The fact that Matthew can speak of Jesus as ‘begotten’ (passive of gennan) suggests that for him the conception through the agency of the holy spirit is the becoming of God’s Son. [In Matthew’s and Luke’s ‘conception Christology’] God’s creative action in the conception of Jesus begets Jesus as God’s Son…There is no suggestion of an Incarnation whereby a figure who was previously with God takes on flesh. For pre-existence Christology [Incarnation], the conception of Jesus is the beginning of an earthly career but not the begetting of God’s Son. [Later] the virginal conception was no longer seen as the begetting of God’s Son, but as the incarnation of God’s Son, and that became orthodox Christian doctrine. This thought process is probably already at work at the beginning of the second century” (pp. 140-142).

Preceding article: Jesus begotten Son of God #16 Prophet to be heard

To be continued: 41. What to believe + 42. Inhuman

Who is Jesus Christ? #1 What does the Bible say the only man who is called “the Last Adam” , the only man who was ever born of a virgin

Preexistence in the Divine purpose and Trinity

Around pre-existence of Christ

Pre-existence of Christ #1 Intro #1 Athanasian Creed

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Luke 22:66-71 (biblestudy123.wordpress.com)
Son of man seated at the right hand
Jesus begotten Son of God #6 Anointed Son of God, Adam and Abraham (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #8 Found Divinely Created not Incarnated (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #11 Existence and Genesis Raising up (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #13 Pre-existence excluding virginal birth of the Only One Transposed (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #14 Beloved Preminent Son and Mediator originating in Mary (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #15 Son of God Originating in Mary (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #16 Prophet to be heard (christadelphians.wordpress.com)

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Jesus begotten Son of God #16 Prophet to be heard

Posted on January 11, 2012. Filed under: Jesus Christ Jeshua the Messiah Jahushua | Tags: Christ, Foreteller, God, God Son, God the Father, Jesus, Jesus Christ, Lord's Prayer, Messiah, New Testament, Prophet |

The Anointed begotten Son of God

38. The Prophet to be heard

A prophet is a spokesman of a deity, one who proclaims a divine message. He is also an inspired teacher, preacher or poet. It is a foreteller (whether claiming to be inspired or not.) (32)

From the beginning God has given humankind His Word which was with them all the time by the word and writingsof the chosen men and prophets.

Jesus was also a prophet or chosen man of God. He was here on earth to teach religion, to give directions how we have to behave. He told us who his Father was and who our heavenly Father is. He also told us who we have to honour and pray to. He taught by parables or illustrations which could give us an idea what was going to happen. As a teacher he brought not exactly a new theory but summarised the old one, bringing a new cause. (33) As a Jew he taught first at the Jewish communities but his words where brought in the open air as well for all who wanted to listen. But God wanted us to listen to His son.

“While he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold a voice from the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; hear him.” (Matthew 17:5 Sawyer)

Jesus disciples went out to tell people about the happenings of this man they got to know better, and wrote down his history in the books we now know as the New Testament. Those who want to be a Christian should listen to those words in those books because they are words form the disciples of Christ Jesus and the words of Jeshua/Jesus and his Father. Not taking up these words is not listening to the disciples who were there to see and to believe. Not listening to those writings would therefore also be not listening to their Master Teacher Jesus Christ, the Messiah who was sent by his and our Father, and as such be a rejecting of this Father. By Jesus the prophecy of Isaiah is continuously being filled up in (or: for; by) them – the one continuing. Christ did not please himself, but did everything to please his Father, even at the moment he knew he was going to be handed over to die. (34)

““Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock,” “ (Matthew 7:24 The Scriptures 1998+) + ““And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them,1 shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand,” {Footnote: 1John 3:36.} “ (Matthew 7:26 The Scriptures 1998+)
““He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” And the taught ones came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” And He answering, said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the secrets of the reign of the heavens, but to them it has not been given. “For whoever possesses, to him more shall be given, and he shall have overflowingly; but whoever does not possess, even what he possesses shall be taken away from him. “Because of this I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. “And in them the prophecy of Yeshayahu is completely filled, which says, ‘Hearing you shall hear and by no means understand, and seeing you shall see and by no means perceive, for the heart of this people has become thickened, and their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart, and turn back, and I heal them.’ “And blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear, for truly I say to you, that many prophets and righteous ones longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.” (Matthew 13:9-17 The Scriptures 1998+)
““He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” “ (Luke 10:16 The Scriptures 1998+)
“And when He had come to His own country, He taught them in their congregation, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this One get this wisdom and miracles? “Is this not the son of the carpenter? Is not His mother called Miryam? And His brothers Ya’aqoḇ and Yosĕph and Shim’on and Yehuḏah? “And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this One get all this?” And they stumbled at Him. But יהושע said to them, “A prophet is not unappreciated except in his own country and in his own house.” “ (Matthew 13:54-57 The Scriptures 1998+)
““But this is how Elohim has filled what He had announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that His Messiah was to suffer. “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which Elohim spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. “For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Elohim shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. ‘And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet1 shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ Footnote: 1Deut. 18:18-20. “And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Shemu’ĕl and those following, have also announced these days. “You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which Elohim made with our fathers, saying to Aḇraham, ‘And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.’ “To you first, Elohim, having raised up His Servant יהושע, sent Him to bless you, in turning away each one of you from your wicked ways.”1 Footnote: 1See 2:38. “(Acts 3:18-26 The Scriptures 1998+)

“For even the Messiah did not please Himself, but, as it has been written, “The reproaches of those who reproached You fell upon Me.” For whatever was written before was written for our instruction,1 that through endurance and encouragement of the Scriptures we might have the expectation. Footnote: 11 Cor. 10:11, 2 Tim. 3:16-17. And the Elohim of endurance and encouragement give you to be of the same mind toward one another, according to Messiah יהושע, that with one mind and one mouth, you might praise the Elohim and Father of our Master יהושע Messiah. So accept one another, as Messiah also did accept us, to the esteem of Elohim. And I say that יהושע Messiah has become a servant of the circumcised for the truth of Elohim, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, and for the gentiles to praise Elohim for His compassion, as it has been written, “Because of this I shall confess to You among the gentiles, and I shall sing to Your Name.” “ (Romans 15:3-9 The Scriptures 1998+)

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32. Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary
33. Compare the meaning of prophet given by the Advanced Learner’s Dictionary of Current English, 2nd Edition p 717
34. “And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and falling on His knees He was praying, saying, “Father, if it be Your counsel, remove this cup from Me. Yet not My desire, but let Yours be done.” And there appeared a messenger from heaven to Him, strengthening Him. And being in agony, He was praying more earnestly. And His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.” (Luke 22:41-44 The Scriptures 1998+)

Preceding article: Jesus begotten Son of God #15 Son of God Originating in Mary

To be continued: 39. Adam and Eve, Mary and Jesus + 40. Identity and nature of Christianity’s central figure

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Jesus begotten Son of God #7 A matter of the Future (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
A Survey of the Book of the New Testament (compasschurchamman.wordpress.com)
The Gospels give us four different, yet not conflicting, accounts of the birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Gospels demonstrate how Jesus was the promised Messiah of the Old Testament and lay the foundation for the teaching of the rest of the New Testament.

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Jesus begotten Son of God #15 Son of God Originating in Mary

Posted on January 4, 2012. Filed under: Being Christian, following Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ Jeshua the Messiah Jahushua | Tags: Begotten, God, God Son, Jesus, Pre-existence, Son of God, Trinitarianism |

The Anointed begotten Son of God

36. Originating in Mary

From the nativity story to the story of the beginning of Jesus ‘public life we see the line of the human link and often we also shall get to see the fragility of the Master Teacher, who sometimes got tired of the human crowd around him.

The whole story is ruined if another dimension is added to the story, namely that the Son of God was already a pre-existing member of an eternal Trinity. Gabriel has carefully defined the nature of Jesus’ Sonship and his words exclude any origin other than a supernatural origin in Mary.

Gabriel’s Jesus, Son of God — the biblical Son — originates in Mary. He is conceived and begotten by miracle. In pre-existence Christology, the main plank of Trinitarianism, a conception/begetting in Mary’s womb does not bring about the existence of God’s Son. According to Gabriel it does. Neither Gabriel nor Luke could possibly have been Trinitarians.

No need for centuries of complex wrangling over words. All that is required is belief of the angelic communication: “For this reason precisely (dio kai) — the creative miracle of God through His divine power — the child will be Son of God.” For no other reason, for this reason only. (Note the very watered-down rendering of the NIV, “so the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.”)

37. Son of the Most High

Jesus as Son of God is “the Son of the Most High”.

“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David.” (Luke 1:32 Complete Apostles’ Bible)

Clearly there is also written in the future sense. In case Jesus already existed, being God, he would be the Most High and therefore would be more than Great. God has been sitting on the throne form the beginning and in case Jesus was God he would have already been sitting on the throne as well and would have had already the throne of David. He also would not have David as his forefather, because David would be a great great-grandson.(30)

We also should question “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?”

“And when he saw יהושע, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, “What have I to do with You, יהושע, Son of the Most High Elohim? I beg You, do not torture me!”” (Luke 8:28 The Scriptures 1998+)

Though we may also be children of God by the grace of Jesus Christ, heirs’ heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, but we shall have to work very hard to become like Christ, as is one of our tasks given by the Master Teacher and his disciples. We as Christ Jesus shall have to come to live according the Spirit, in the spirit instead of in the flesh, as Jesus was in the Spirit and from the Spirit. In such a way only by submitting to God’s law, not being in the flesh we shall be able to please God. As the Spirit of Goddwelled in Jesus it should also dwell in us. And being led by the Spirit of God we are sons of God in the same way that Jesus is son of God. The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. (31)

“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace. Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself1 to the Torah of Elohim2, neither indeed is it able, {Footnotes: 1Or does not obey. 2John 15:5, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18.} and those who are in the flesh are unable to please Elohim. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of Elohim dwells in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Messiah, this one is not His. And if Messiah is in you, the body is truly dead on account of sin, but the Spirit is life on account of righteousness. And if the Spirit of Him who raised יהושע from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Messiah from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit dwelling in you. So then, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of Elohim, these are sons of Elohim. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of Elohim, and if children, also heirs – truly heirs of Elohim, and co-heirs with Messiah, if indeed we suffer with Him, in order that we also be exalted together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the esteem that is to be revealed in us. For the intense longing1 of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of Elohim. {Footnote: 1Lit. anxiously looking with outstretched head.} For the creation was subjected to futility, not from choice, but because of Him who subjected it, in anticipation, that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage to corruption into the esteemed freedom of the children of Elohim.” (Romans 8:5-21 The Scriptures 1998+)

Let us therefore know and understand, not walking in darkness but recognize the person to whom Jesus prayed and whom he adored and called Him his Father. As David and Jesus said that the Creator of all things was their Father, we also should say: “you are Elohim, and sons of the Supreme are all of you.” Yet we know we shall die like common humanity, most likely in a better way than Jesus died. Though Jesus never did do anything wrong but poor us we do know we are too weak to be totally like Christ, without any fault, with whom we have to be in unity.

“They do not know, nor do they understand, They walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. I, I said, “You are elohim, And all of you are sons of the Most High. “But as men you die, And fall as one of the heads.” “ (Psalms 82:5-7 The Scriptures 1998+)

“My little children, I write this to you, so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Intercessor with the Father, יהושע Messiah, a righteous One. And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world. And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands.1{Footnote: 1See 3:6}. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected1 in him. By this we know that we are in Him.2 {Footnotes: 1Gen. 17:1, Ps. 119:1, Mt. 5:48. 2See 3:24.} The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.1 {Footnote: 1See v. 24.} (1 John 2:1-7 The Scriptures 1998+)

Note (30): But see who is the great-grandson: “He (Jesus) will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his forefather David.” (Luke 1:32 ISV)

(31): “The spirit itself is testifying together with our spirit that we are children of God.” (Romans 8:16 CLV)

Preceding article: Jesus begotten Son of God #14 Beloved Preminent Son and Mediator originating in Mary

To be continued: The Prophet to be heard

+++

Jesus begotten Son of God #7 A matter of the Future (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #8 Found Divinely Created not Incarnated (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #9 Two millennia ago conceived or begotten (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #10 Coming down spirit or flesh seed of Eve (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #12 Son of God (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #13 Pre-existence excluding virginal birth of the Only One Transposed (christadelphians.wordpress.com)
Jesus begotten Son of God #14 Beloved Preminent Son and Mediator originating in Mary (christadelphians.wordpress.com)

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Archive for January, 2012

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Fragments from The Amplified Bible 1987 Frances Siewert Translation

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